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Old 03-20-2007, 08:02 PM   #61
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Thats from the fatwa issued by Bin Laden and Ayman al Zawahiri in 1998 for attacks on American and western targets to get the US out of Saudi Arabia and Israel out of existence. Islamists see it as a war, one that will lead to the removal of western influence and the rise of pan-Islamic governance across the Muslim world and eventually the globe (long term goal). I don't think that anything short of making that happen (hence the sarcastic convert to Islam and talibanise your country comment) will stop the intent or hatred; for a good many people it is sanctioned from above (even a small percentage minority of over a billion is still a lot of people).

we've done a great job at giving them what they want: legitimacy, via an entire upheval of our way of life, our civil liberties, and our status in the world.

the terrorists have won, haven't they.
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Old 03-20-2007, 08:12 PM   #62
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How will it end?
I'd like to think it ends with COEXIST, but I fear that depends on who prevails in the current battle for the hearts and minds of the Muslim religion. The small yet fanatical extremists, or the majority that claim to be the religion of peace. When the loudest protests against terrorism start coming from mosques and Muslims in the street, then we may have turned the corner.
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Old 03-20-2007, 08:13 PM   #63
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well even that's a fallacy for their is no consensus and Bin Laden isn't the leader of Islam of Jihadism.

But once again if we're at war with Al Queda as INDY put it, why the hell are we in Iraq?
Islamism is an ideology, Al Qaeda is a "group" that embraces that ideology but it is interwoven with a bunch of other organisations throughout the middle east, central and south east asia; getting rid of "Al Qaeda" or the key players connected to Bin Laden doesn't do anything about the other groups, it is a problem bigger than just Al Qaeda, Bin Laden is irrelevant because even if he is killed or captured there are still other people with the means and intent to kill civilians to achieve the same broad goals.

Now a lot of support for Islamist groups not limited to Al Qaeda occurs in politically repressive nations where there are no avenues for dissent against the governments; dissatisfied young men seem rather prone to pursuing the revolutionary Islamist agenda in these countries. The western support to the regimes is a driving force for getting a pool of recruits for Islamist groups.

Regime change in Iraq was a policy goal set by Clinton and carried out by Bush. The objective of guaranteeing disarmnent of WMD from Saddam Husseins regime was one reason for going to war but to tie it to the broader war on terror changing US policy in the region from supporting dictators to democracy; specifically consensual government where extremist elements are tempered by other avenues of non-violent political action would be it.

The fucked up thing is that Bush doesn't mean it, he is an utter bastard who takes a halfway approach of going into Iraq (and we can rightly get mad about postwar planning) doing the much more difficult thing and allowing a transition to elected government rather than stick a benign dictator in while simultaneously approving of dictatorship in Saudi Arabia, Egypt etc. and not doing anything regionally to support progressive movements against the Mullahs in Iran.

Islamist groups will not be stopped by ceeding to their every demand or by supporting whichever bastard executes supporters the fastest; when there is the political, economic and social change that in the region (which takes decades to happen) these groups die with a whimper, they loose their attractiveness, the Iraq war was sold as a part of that and it has been depressing to see how poorly this administration has done in not doing anything else.

Regardless of the reasons why there remains the important issue of what happens when the US leaves (which it will) and the conditions it does under. On this point the savagery of the insurgents cannot be glossed over, the Sunni fundamentalist factions are not going to allow the ethnic clensing of Iraqs Sunnis without a fight and will try to establish a new Afghanistan in central Iraq; unless all parties can be guaranteed a continued existence before the US leaves there will be a bloodbath, an avoidable one.
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Old 03-20-2007, 08:19 PM   #64
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar



And what does ground zero have to do with the current war? I know you neo-cons like to blur your evidence and truth, but answer this one straight forward.

Which war? In Afghanistan, everything. We went there to disable the hierarchy and destroy the training camps of al Qaeda. Which we've done to great success. Bin Laden, while not captured--or killed as far as we know--is pinned down in a cave. But as A Wanderer points out, new groups around the world now exist.

Iraq, well, maybe indirectly.
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Old 03-20-2007, 08:22 PM   #65
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Originally posted by Irvine511



we've done a great job at giving them what they want: legitimacy, via an entire upheval of our way of life, our civil liberties, and our status in the world.

the terrorists have won, haven't they.
Insular and inward facing, the US could be a fascist state dropping retaliatory nukes on Islamic countries and it wouldn't mean that Islamist terrorists had won; I think that you could say that they have won when they gain control of a state and are capable of pursuing an expansion in much more concentional terms, if such an event ever happened it would definitely be much less ambiguous.

When your government monitors your e-mail, telephone and locks citizens away the statists (the enemy within) has won, not the Islamists.

Smash the government, piss off the believers and give me sex, booze and blasphemy; right now I would rather see mercenary contract killers hunt down terrorists than have government use that objective as a means of opression.
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Old 03-20-2007, 08:47 PM   #66
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Iraq, well, maybe indirectly.
Well I'm glad YOU are comfortable enough with making such absolutes as war under circumstances such as "maybe".
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Old 03-20-2007, 08:55 PM   #67
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Originally posted by Irvine511




eep, sorry, i thought you said you were 16 in the alcohol thread.

entschuldigung.
Ah, no, I stopped drinking with 16 and that's the age where the ones from the Gymnasium start drinking

But anyways, thank you for the compliment
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Old 03-21-2007, 09:15 AM   #68
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well I'm glad YOU are comfortable enough with making such absolutes as war under circumstances such as "maybe".
I was rushing off to work and wasn't able to really finish my thoughts. Just to clarify about the "maybe" referring to the war in Iraq.
I think invading Iraq was a mistake--they had nothing to do with 9/11 and Saddam was more of a threat to his own people than to the rest of the world. IMO. However, I can see why Bush did what he did without the "Bush lied", "oil for blood" rhetoric and I don't think the war immoral or illegal, just not prudent and definitely not managed well.
HOWEVER, while it isn't one of the initial reasons given for us going into Iraq, "maybe" it has served us well in the worldwide War on Terror or Islamofascism, by our presence acting as a magnet and concentrating much of the battle in one area.

You have to use "maybe" when discussing Iraq because only time will tell. I honestly hope time proves me wrong and George Bush a genesis.
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Old 03-21-2007, 05:41 PM   #69
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I would say our presence in Iraq has acted as something far worse than simply a magnet for the battle. It's become an amplifier.
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Old 03-26-2007, 09:19 PM   #70
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Apologies if this has already been posted, but David Hicks has joined those detainees pleading guilty.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/...761414531.html

I find this whole situation quite revolting. I don't know if he really is guilty or not, and I suspect no one ever will.
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Old 05-20-2007, 07:57 AM   #71
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy
I hope Actung Bono is just one big joke, because if they are a real living breathing human thinking like that - i'm scared!

Our most prolific person over there is David Hicks - this country doesn't seem to give a fuck, and think he deserves what he gets, but my thoughts are think

This dude fought and learnt with the taliban, but was not involved with the war back in 2001/2002 but rather was support. Why there is he charged with treason? Can a person born in one country not defect to another through his own rights? Why do we even care he is with the taliban? Sure they are bastards to women and shiut, but why should we tell him what he can? If he wanted to live in Afghanistan and be apart of them, who are we to stop him? I don't understand the charges against him? He didn't kill anyone. I also don't understand people's apathy when we all know he's been helf for 5 years without trial - been tortured and spent a YEAR in solitary confinment. I mean can you even imagine that?

I don't have much respect for the us administration, but i have absolutely none for the hypocritical ones.
Hicks is now on Australian soil, and i hope to God this man along with countless others get together for a MASSIVE GROUP ACTION and sues the complete arse out of the Bush administration for war crimes, crimes against peace, crimes against humanity, and for trying to conceal these crimes.

The Bush administration has systematicaly violated fundamental human rights guaranteed by the UN Charter, the Geneva Conventions, the Convention on Torture, the Alien Tort Claims Act, Bush has lied to his own Congress and to other International officials, and violated many other laws, treaties and obligations, including internal regulations of the Department of Defense and the Department of Justice.

Suck it up BUSH, SUCK IT UP!
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Old 05-20-2007, 03:08 PM   #72
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
When your government monitors your e-mail, telephone and locks citizens away the statists (the enemy within) has won, not the Islamists.
Agreed.
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