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Old 03-20-2007, 05:45 PM   #46
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but you want a name, i'll give you one: Jose Padilla.
We're at war with al Qaeda, Jose Padilla was an al Qaeda trained operative sent to the United States in 2002 with the sole intention of stealing radioactive material and detonating a "dirty bomb" within a U.S. city.
Sounds more like an enemy combatant than a political dissenter to me but didn't a Federal judge rule against Bush on this?

I guess it comes down to two different philosophies. Do you fight terrorists with indictments and trials (as we did prior to 9/11) or with information gathering, bombs and soldiers.
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Old 03-20-2007, 05:59 PM   #47
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Originally posted by INDY500

We're at war with al Qaeda, Jose Padilla was an al Qaeda trained operative sent to the United States in 2002 with the sole intention of stealing radioactive material and detonating a "dirty bomb" within a U.S. city.
Sounds more like an enemy combatant than a political dissenter to me but didn't a Federal judge rule against Bush on this?



we're at war with Al-Qaeda? when was that declared? what are the objectives we'll need to achieve in order to gain their unconditional surrender?

he was designated an "enemy combatant," and there's no way, yet, to determine if he's a good guy or a bad guy.

it doesn't matter if he's a good guy or a bad guy or just some damn fool. his is a tragic case of what you've enabled the president to do, and he can do it to you, too.

there are also reports that he's been kept in solitary confinement and subjected to torture in the form of sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, and the always euphamistic "stress positions." it's been reported that he's collapsed, mentally, that he can no longer function as a human being.


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I guess it comes down to two different philosophies. Do you fight terrorists with indictments and trials (as we did prior to 9/11) or with information gathering, bombs and soldiers.

why do the two have to be mutually exclusive? why not the judicious use of bombs and soldiers (hint: NOT in iraq) and using intelligence to garner indictments and trials?
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Old 03-20-2007, 06:07 PM   #48
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impressive. can't believe you're only 16.
Me neither

I'm 21, thank you

But I wouldn't have written anything else five years ago.
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Old 03-20-2007, 06:31 PM   #49
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We're at war with al Qaeda,
We are? Where did you hear this?


Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Jose Padilla was an al Qaeda trained operative sent to the United States in 2002 with the sole intention of stealing radioactive material and detonating a "dirty bomb" within a U.S. city.
Sounds more like an enemy combatant than a political dissenter to me but didn't a Federal judge rule against Bush on this?
He was found guilty? By who?

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Originally posted by INDY500

I guess it comes down to two different philosophies. Do you fight terrorists with indictments and trials (as we did prior to 9/11) or with information gathering, bombs and soldiers.
Is "information gathering" the new neo-con word for torture?

I find this statement, this type of black and white thinking very interesting, especially compared to your previous statement of
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We don't stand against the freedoms, at least I don't. Only to point out that there truly are consequences (good and bad; to the individual and to society as a whole; in this life and in the next) to the choices we make.
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Old 03-20-2007, 06:45 PM   #50
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Freedom for my people! Nothing for my enemy.
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Old 03-20-2007, 06:58 PM   #51
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

We are? Where did you hear this?
Would this count as a declaration of war?
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[t]he ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'.
The war started before the US was in the fight, it will continue.
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:07 PM   #52
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Uh, yeah where's that from?
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:16 PM   #53
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Thats from the fatwa issued by Bin Laden and Ayman al Zawahiri in 1998 for attacks on American and western targets to get the US out of Saudi Arabia and Israel out of existence. Islamists see it as a war, one that will lead to the removal of western influence and the rise of pan-Islamic governance across the Muslim world and eventually the globe (long term goal). I don't think that anything short of making that happen (hence the sarcastic convert to Islam and talibanise your country comment) will stop the intent or hatred; for a good many people it is sanctioned from above (even a small percentage minority of over a billion is still a lot of people).
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:25 PM   #54
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So any group can make a statement like that and we're in war with them?

Don't think so.
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:36 PM   #55
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
So any group can make a statement like that and we're in war with them?

Don't think so.


Does this help.
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:37 PM   #56
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You wanted a declaration, Bin Laden made one, and it seems like your position is that it isn't a war, I have read a number of pieces that take that position to rationalise that if the US stops it's actions abroad then terrorism will decrease and end, I don't know if thats your position.

I think that when those edicts are matched by attacks of increasing magnitude against your interests (WTC bombing, USS Cole, Kenya and Tanzania bombings) culminating in September 11 then it is reasonable to say that you are in a state of conflict, a war if you will; however it is much larger than "Al Qaeda" and there is a lot of crossover between different organisations with shared ideology.

War on Terror is a fallacy, since it is a really a war on Islamism or Jihadism or even Islam; terrorists aren't representing state actors, they don't obey the conventions of war or have militaries that define conventional warfare, it ends with a whimper not a bang. No surrenders, no accords, no clearly defined end point (which is why power can't be consolidated with government because in a real sense trying to topple an ideology is a perpetual war). The poor definition of this conflict and the sorting out of status for combatants ties into this (I don't think that it would be remotely possible to try those captured in Afghanistan through the courts, I also think there is a hard balance between the rights of those captured and what to do with them until their status is determined and the risk posed to general populations if even a fraction would be instrumental in terrorist attacks - it's a dillemma, to pretend otherwise one way or another is equally shortsighted).

It's all moot anyway; if the position I alluded to in the first paragraph is right then great, the political lethargy and isolationism that America is embracing won't have any concequences in the long term, if it is wrong and those groups gain the means for another escelation then I doubt the response from the US will involve spending American lives and coin to remove fascistic dictators and protect representative government, would probably be a lot more of a scorched earth reaction.
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:45 PM   #57
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War on Terror is a fallacy, since it is a really a war on Islamism or Jihadism or even Islam; terrorists aren't representing state actors, they don't obey the conventions of war or have militaries that define conventional warfare, it ends with a whimper not a bang. No surrenders, no accords, no clearly defined end point (which is why power can't be consolidated with government because in a real sense trying to topple an ideology is a perpetual war).
Well even that's a fallacy for their is no consensus and Bin Laden isn't the leader of Islam of Jihadism.

But once again if we're at war with Al Queda as INDY put it, why the hell are we in Iraq?
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:46 PM   #58
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:48 PM   #59
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Does this help.
And how many in Gitmo had something to do with that?

And what does ground zero have to do with the current war? I know you neo-cons like to blur your evidence and truth, but answer this one straight forward.
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:59 PM   #60
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Me neither

I'm 21, thank you

But I wouldn't have written anything else five years ago.


eep, sorry, i thought you said you were 16 in the alcohol thread.

entschuldigung.
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