Can God be "the bigger person" when it comes to non-believers? - Page 8 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-18-2004, 07:48 PM   #106
War Child
 
shrmn8rpoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Seward, NE
Posts: 516
Local Time: 10:01 PM
okay, so then i guess we agree, at least on that one point...sweet
__________________

__________________
shrmn8rpoptart is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 07:54 PM   #107
War Child
 
shrmn8rpoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Seward, NE
Posts: 516
Local Time: 10:01 PM
well, actually, let me clarify, we can ascribe characteristics to God based on what He gives us in the Bible...such as he is omnipresent, omnipotent, rightous, just, and the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, all wholly seperate from each other, yet still one person)
__________________

__________________
shrmn8rpoptart is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 07:57 PM   #108
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 12:01 AM
Well, yes. Just that I believe that God transcends race, age, gender, etc.

Ultimately *God* is *God*, and is the perfect summation of all that is, and completely transcendent of all human understanding.
__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 08:02 PM   #109
New Yorker
 
Flying FuManchu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Used to live in Chambana. For now the Mid-South.
Posts: 3,149
Local Time: 11:01 PM
"Completely transcendent of all human understanding."

Some people would disagree with that statement, but then it would depend on what you mean by completely transcendent of all human understanding.
__________________
Flying FuManchu is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 08:04 PM   #110
War Child
 
shrmn8rpoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Seward, NE
Posts: 516
Local Time: 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
Well, yes. Just that I believe that God transcends race, age, gender, etc.

Ultimately *God* is *God*, and is the perfect summation of all that is, and completely transcendent of all human understanding.
of course!!! the only part of God that i can even begin to know, is what he presents of Himself in the Word. and this will still routinely blow your mind.

and how could you ascribe race or age to this genuinely awesome being who has existed from eternity, and will exist for eternity. the gender thing, no, not in the human sense, but in at least a metaphorical or metaphysical sense, as Christ often refers to the church as a bride, and himself as the bridegroom...
__________________
shrmn8rpoptart is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 08:32 PM   #111
The Fly
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 78
Local Time: 04:01 AM
Quote:
God does forgive EVERYONE!
Don't you mean everyone except for the people who reject his gift of forgiveness?
__________________
szuchy is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 08:37 PM   #112
War Child
 
shrmn8rpoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Seward, NE
Posts: 516
Local Time: 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by szuchy


Don't you mean everyone except for the people who reject his gift of forgiveness?
sorry, but these people HAD forgiveness, and threw it away. the fault therefore does not lie with God, it lies with man.

if i give you a gift, and you turn it down, or later throw it away, does that change the fact that i gave you the gift?
__________________
shrmn8rpoptart is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 09:16 PM   #113
Bono's Belly Dancing Friend
 
Mrs. Edge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Torontonian in Maryland
Posts: 2,913
Local Time: 12:01 AM
Holy moly! I just got back from the ballet and this thread is HUGE! I'm wayyyy too tired to read it all in detail, but someone asked me if I was willing to put my ego aside and believe.

Well sure, but this has nothing to do with my ego!! The point is that if I am going to invest that much time and energy and emotion and well, my whole eternal soul perhaps, then it had better be in something I can truly understand and embrace. I would hope that God wouldn't want me to believe out of fear, but out of genuine feeling. Does God really want me to believe because I have been blackmailed/threatened into it? "Believe OR ELSE!" ???

We have also gone into some very deep discussions that are way beyond the original question, which is great, but I haven't a clue what people are talking about, having never read the Bible, quoting it to me will not mean anything. I don't even know what a Calvinist is! Who is Calvin?

All I really wanted to know was if God would be willing to "get over it" if someone was a non believer and forgive them. I think if he supposedly loves us that much, he SHOULD! I don't see why more people don't agree with me on this.

No one has yet answered my question about why someone who believes and changes their mind gets into heaven, but someone who never did believe does not. THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!!!!!



People also talk a lot about just "accepting" Jesus and it's a piece of cake and here is this gift why don't you take it etc etc...Well it IS a difficult thing to do. When you are a kid and brought up with this stuff it may be no problem but as an adult....well, I find it very hard to just believe in something because someone tells you to. It's like an arranged marriage and your parents say "here is your husband...go love him" I just can't be force fed such things.

I just don't get it. And I think it's grossly unfair that if I were killed tomorrow I would have to be punished forever simply for how I was brought up and for having a questioning mind.
__________________
Mrs. Edge is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 09:25 PM   #114
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Macfistowannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,129
Local Time: 12:01 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


But in Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, he argued that God is absolutely sovereign and that he "initiates all actions". Calvin introduced the notion that humans are dependent on divine grace, are utterly sinful and powerless to achieve salvation, and the notion that the sovereign God who is both omnisicient and omnipotent, "predestines every person to salvation or damnation".

It doesn't seem to me as if you have any choice at all based on this view.
This is the problem with preaching Calvinism in a debate that involves both Christians and non-believers. I for one don't believe in predestination, and I do believe that people are in control of the most important decisions in their lives - especially choosing Christ.
__________________
Macfistowannabe is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 09:35 PM   #115
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Macfistowannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,129
Local Time: 12:01 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by szuchy
There are many christians who have the mercy to forgive non-believers. But God, in all his infinite mercy, cannot find it in his heart to do so?

Then again, I doubt my opinion matters to him, as I have been destined to go to hell since I stopped believing about 7 years ago.
Destined to go to Hell? I don't think we should discuss the Calvinist approach if that's not our God-given duty folks. Do you think the disciples would've won over as many people as they did if they told them that they have NO CONTROL over their afterlife? There are more non-Calvinists on here than there are, and I find the Calvinist theory almost as offensive as a non-believer would.

What did God to do that made you walk away? Whatever it was, God will accept you all over again with open arms, should you choose to turn around. He will offer you the same forgiveness that he gave me.
__________________
Macfistowannabe is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 09:40 PM   #116
War Child
 
shrmn8rpoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Seward, NE
Posts: 516
Local Time: 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
Holy moly! I just got back from the ballet and this thread is HUGE! I'm wayyyy too tired to read it all in detail, but someone asked me if I was willing to put my ego aside and believe.

Well sure, but this has nothing to do with my ego!! The point is that if I am going to invest that much time and energy and emotion and well, my whole eternal soul perhaps, then it had better be in something I can truly understand and embrace.


We have also gone into some very deep discussions that are way beyond the original question, which is great, but I haven't a clue what people are talking about, having never read the Bible, quoting it to me will not mean anything. I don't even know what a Calvinist is! Who is Calvin?

All I really wanted to know was if God would be willing to "get over it" if someone was a non believer and forgive them. I think if he supposedly loves us that much, he SHOULD!

No one has yet answered my question about why someone who believes and changes their mind gets into heaven, but someone who never did believe does not. THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!!!!!



People also talk a lot about just "accepting" Jesus and all this....well, I find it very hard to just believe in something because someone tells you to. It's like an arranged marriage and your parents say "here is your husband...go love him" I just can't be force fed such things.

I just don't get it.
great post. i would really recommend reading the Bible, it is the best place to find these answers! if you need a place to start, go for one of the gospels (the first four books of the new testament), john is the one i'd go with. also, if possible, try and find an NIV translation, imo it is the easiest translation to read while still remaining accurate.

if you want to do some other reading, check out some c.s. lewis, maybe "the problem of pain". he is a great author. he started out as an ardent atheist, and was eventually converted, and explains christianity so well and in easy to understand terms. in this particular book, he speaks a lot to the whether or not it is just for God to send some people to hell, while other get to go to heaven. believe me, it is a difficult cooncept to explain, and even more difficult to come to terms with. so, i'd really recommend reading up on the subject, instead of taking a bunch of crazed u2 nuts word for it.

and i'll try to answer your question, as well as possible in this limited space, but definitly do read some other stuff.

here goes: i'm not so sure that someone who did believe, then changes their mind about it does get in to heaven. to me, it is implied that they have rejected their faith. they have turned God down, and by doing so, have forfeited the gift of forgiveness.

so, someone who turns away after a life of faithfulness, is in the same boat as the person who rejected the offer from the beginning.

in the same vein, someone who has been an unbeliever their entire life, but is converted at the end, goes to heaven just the same as a person who has believed all along.

oh, and calvin was a theolgian from the 16th century (help me out guys, is that right?) who taught the notion of double predestination...that is some people are destined for heaven from eternity (the elect) and on the flip side, other people are destined to hell from eternity. this is where you start getting into problems with whether or not God is acting justly. if you want to get a better answer than calvin gives, check out martin luther the guy is a genius.

hope this helps, and remember, Bible-John, c.s. lewis-"problem of pain". you will find some answers there!
__________________
shrmn8rpoptart is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 09:45 PM   #117
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Macfistowannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,129
Local Time: 12:01 AM
A lot of my questions get great answers in a Study Bible. I think my bible has made me a better Christian.
__________________
Macfistowannabe is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 09:50 PM   #118
War Child
 
shrmn8rpoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Seward, NE
Posts: 516
Local Time: 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
This is the problem with preaching Calvinism in a debate that involves both Christians and non-believers. I for one don't believe in predestination, and I do believe that people are in control of the most important decisions in their lives - especially choosing Christ.
of course that is the problem with calvinism!!! double-predestination is crap. instead read some lutheran doctrine!!!

at the same time, i still don't think that we can "choose" God. we cannot choose life, it is a gift from God, the only "choice" that we can make is to turn this gift down.

sola fide, sola gratia, sola scriptura
"by faith alone, by grace alone, by scripture alone" that is the summation of the lutheran faith.
__________________
shrmn8rpoptart is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 09:52 PM   #119
War Child
 
shrmn8rpoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Seward, NE
Posts: 516
Local Time: 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I think my bible has made me a better Christian.
OF COURSE!!! what better place to get answers, and strengthen your faith then from God himself? right on man!
__________________
shrmn8rpoptart is offline  
Old 11-18-2004, 09:57 PM   #120
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Macfistowannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,129
Local Time: 12:01 AM
I'm a Lutheran at heart, although I attend a non-denominational Christian church. I've read Luther's Small Cathechism, and he's very bright. The only problem I have with denominations is that people spend way too much time preaching Calvinism, Catholicism, or even Lutheranism, much more than Christianity. They all have potential to become an approach of their own, it's not what Jesus' message was about. The gift is simply God's love, which should be talked about much more than God's punishment.
__________________

__________________
Macfistowannabe is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com