Can God be "the bigger person" when it comes to non-believers? - Page 6 - U2 Feedback

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Old 11-18-2004, 03:54 PM   #76
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


The logic does not flow here. God's omnisciences does not translate into our inability to choose our actions.

If I leave a plate of chocolate chip cookies out on the counter, I know my son will walk by and take one. But he still had the choice to take a cookie.
the point is, that okay, yes, there is a crossroads, between death and life. but our will is in bondage to sin and satan, and that because of this, we can only choose death. (note, this is not because God makes us sins, but because, due to original sin, of our bondage to satan)

so, your son is a "slave" to cookies. you know that he will take one, because you know that this is the only thing that he can will because of his bondage to cookies. now, you can step in and show your son something healthy, like a piece of fruit, but he will not choose that fruit unless you give it to him.
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Old 11-18-2004, 03:58 PM   #77
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No, no. If you left the cookies sitting on the counter KNOWING your son would eat one and then punished him...that's the situation we're dealing with. According to many of you, God knows everything. He already knows what decisions you're going to make. It's all therefore written out. If it is all written out then you have no choice but to do what you are going to do. You had no choice but to write "the logic doesn't flow here" or anything else you are going to write.
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Old 11-18-2004, 03:59 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Are you suggesting it is genetic?
I wouldn't be surprised if it's partially genetic. I think the cookie comparison is too simple, I’m thinking more in terms of falling in love. You have no control over that either.
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Old 11-18-2004, 03:59 PM   #79
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By the way, sometimes i post things before i get to read people's comments....i'm reading back going, hey i never got to read that before.
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:00 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


The logic does not flow here. God's omnisciences does not translate into our inability to choose our actions.

If I leave a plate of chocolate chip cookies out on the counter, I know my son will walk by and take one. But he still had the choice to take a cookie.
But in Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, he argued that God is absolutely sovereign and that he "initiates all actions". Calvin introduced the notion that humans are dependent on divine grace, are utterly sinful and powerless to achieve salvation, and the notion that the sovereign God who is both omnisicient and omnipotent, "predestines every person to salvation or damnation".

It doesn't seem to me as if you have any choice at all based on this view.
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:01 PM   #81
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I’m thinking more in terms of falling in love. You have no control over that either.
Actually, you do. In fact, many aspect of love are completely within our control.
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:02 PM   #82
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Of course the cookie example is too simple, most examples are. A couple of weeks ago Newsweek had a story in it about scientists discovering that some people are born more prone to believe in something like a God than others. If God does exist, this hardly seems fair to create people who are less likely to believe in you and punish them for not.
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:04 PM   #83
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wow guys, this is a REALLY good cordial discussion.
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:06 PM   #84
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To add further confusion: If you accept the notion that for every action there is a reaction, and if you accept the idea that God created everything, then it seems as if God is the one to be held responsible for our actions.
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:07 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by blueyedpoet
No, no. If you left the cookies sitting on the counter KNOWING your son would eat one and then punished him...that's the situation we're dealing with. According to many of you, God knows everything. He already knows what decisions you're going to make. It's all therefore written out. If it is all written out then you have no choice but to do what you are going to do. You had no choice but to write "the logic doesn't flow here" or anything else you are going to write.
haha, know we're into the fun issue of compulsion, versus the necessity of immutability. that is whether we sin because compels this action to happen, or that God's will is immutable, so if God wills (or foreknows [probably not a word, i know]) and his will is immutable, then whatever he wills must necessarily take place.
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:13 PM   #86
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ugh, i have so much to say, but having written papers on this i feel like i can't...give me time
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:13 PM   #87
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What does a Calvinist say after they fall down the stairs and break their leg?




Thank God that's over.
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:30 PM   #88
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good one...gotta love religious jokes. Sometimes they can help the mood become less tense. I dunno people, we seem to be stuck at a real problem. It seems as if our notion of God and our notion of moral responsibility do not logically hold up together. I personally do believe that humans are responsible, but I have yet to mesh that with a deterministic world. And, it seems our world is such that the laws of nature and history (prior human choices) determine the future. If anyone is interested in how I managed a proof for moral responsibility that stumped even a TA at UCLA ....okay, sorry for that egotistical statement, but what can i say, I like the sound of my own....
Anyways, recently i did a horrible thing. Suffice it to say i hurt someone i dearly love. With all my studies into determinism etc it would've been very easy to say, look I had no other choice but to act like i did. I'm not responsible. And yet, this penetrating need pierced through, I needed to take responsibility. I have spoken with others and they too feel the need to be morally responsible. In addition, society functions best when holding it's members accountable for their actions. Is it possible for a need to exist without a source to fulfill it? I thirst, there is water. I hunger, there is food. well you get the point.
Now to understand our deterministic world and to find God.....
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:37 PM   #89
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i didn't mean to come across like such an ass in that last one....i'm just as lost as anyone, which is why OSC is really my theme song right now.
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:45 PM   #90
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i'm trying to bring in a different perspective here. but what if everyone's concept of an omniscent God were taken from a different angle. instead of a being in the sky with a beard who knows everything you're feeling, thinking, etc ... what if God WAS those feelings/thoughts. maybe this omniscent God is really an awesome spiritual force that is composed of everyone's thoughts, hearts, feelings, and mind, no matter what faith or religion they prescribe to. i think God is sort of a continuum of everything, physical and metaphysical, that binds everything into one powerful force. this theory/belief allows for an omniscent God and also addresses the age old question of how people's thoughts/beliefs affect their afterlife and how god views them. this singular force that binds everything would allow for different perspectives of faith/religion/lack-of-religion/atheism/etc.

just a thought from a different perspective/background...
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