Can God be "the bigger person" when it comes to non-believers?

[blueyedpoet]

i like your thought. What if when jesus said i am the way, he was saying I am Tao?
What your sayng anirban is also interesting in light of string-theory. All things are composed of tiny vibrating strings. The vibration pattern of said strings give off the appearance of any given object.

 

[Anirban]

it's less a physical, binding object than a spiritual one. God is still unseen, unsensed, and still just as awesome a force -- but not an old man in the sky.

 

[blueyedpoet]

I think for people who need a father figure, that's what God is to them. For people who need a nurturing spirit, that's what God is to them. To me God is shapeless this way and able to take any shape. It's like what Bono says about being weary of putting God in a box.

 

[pax]

I heard Elizabeth Johnson, a pretty famous Catholic feminist theologian, speak last year at my college. She said something that has stuck in my head ever since, and I'll paraphrase it here: If you have always seen God as an old, white man, why not try thinking of God as young, black, and female?

 

[Flying FuManchu]

God is Galactus...

 

[A_Wanderer]

All Hail Galactus

 

[szuchy]

There are many christians who have the mercy to forgive non-believers. But God, in all his infinite mercy, cannot find it in his heart to do so?

Then again, I doubt my opinion matters to him, as I have been destined to go to hell since I stopped believing about 7 years ago.

 

[BVS]

There are many christians who have the mercy to forgive non-believers. But God, in all his infinite mercy, cannot find it in his heart to do so?

No, just man's version of God.

 

[nbcrusader]

No, just man's version of God.

Only if we consider Scripture just man's words and not God's Word.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

There are many christians who have the mercy to forgive non-believers. But God, in all his infinite mercy, cannot find it in his heart to do so?

Then again, I doubt my opinion matters to him, as I have been destined to go to hell since I stopped believing about 7 years ago.

A Xtian's response...

 

[deep]

why not try thinking of God as young, black, and female?

Janet Jackson

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

There are many christians who have the mercy to forgive non-believers. But God, in all his infinite mercy, cannot find it in his heart to do so?

God does forgive EVERYONE! that's the whole point of Christ dying on the cross...he took on the sins of the whole world and was the atoning sacrifice for our sins. so everyone has an oppurtunity for forgiveness, and in turn eternal life. however, if one is to reject this gift, they THEMSELVES forfeited their own forgiveness, and are therefore subject to the punnishment. and "the wages of sin is death" Christ said, and i'm paraphrasing here (someone can look up these passages, i'm too lazy right now) whoever denies me on earth, so also will i deny him before my Father. it appears that the blame for these actions lies soley on the person!

and, i am not a calvinist! i don't believe in double predestination. i am a lutheran! i know not many people know of lutheran teachings other than that he "hated catholics and split the church" (i've been told this by people at school) or whatever, but lutheran teaching is very clear on these issues. here is what the augsberg confessions has to say:

"...through the fall of our first parents man is so corrupted that in divine things, concerning our conversion and salvation, he is by nature blind and does not and cannot understand the Word of God, but considers it foolishness; nor does he himself approach God, but he is and remains an enemy of God until by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the Word which is preached and heard, purely out of grace and without any cooperation on his part, he is converted, becomes a believer, is regenerated and renewed."

 

[verte76]

If you had the cure to a disease, would you share it?

Of course. I'm really tired right now, I'll sleep on the relationship between control and cure to a disease tonight and return to this thread after a nice dream.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

I heard Elizabeth Johnson, a pretty famous Catholic feminist theologian, speak last year at my college. She said something that has stuck in my head ever since, and I'll paraphrase it here: If you have always seen God as an old, white man, why not try thinking of God as young, black, and female?

of course the image of an old white guy in the sky is ludicrous. first of all, God does not exist just in heaven, God is omnipresent. secondly, God does not, as far as we know, have a human form, and to view Him as such puts human limitations on Him (though Christ did assume true human form during His time on earth).

however, viewing him as young, black female is equally ludicrous. first of all for the same reason why he should not be viewed as an old white guy. and second of all, because issues like this really tend to trivialize sacred matters. instead of worrying about issues like salvation, justification, and sanctification, you know, the ones that have to do with what happens to your soul, and whether or not you're going to heaven or hell, people are focused on God's skin color. it is a diversionary tactic, to keep people away from real issues of faith.

 

[pax]

I don't think that's what she meant--I think she was trying to simply get people to realize that God is *God*, and that anything else we ascribe to God is superfluous.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

okay, so then i guess we agree, at least on that one point...sweet

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

well, actually, let me clarify, we can ascribe characteristics to God based on what He gives us in the Bible...such as he is omnipresent, omnipotent, rightous, just, and the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, all wholly seperate from each other, yet still one person)

 

[pax]

Well, yes. Just that I believe that God transcends race, age, gender, etc.

Ultimately *God* is *God*, and is the perfect summation of all that is, and completely transcendent of all human understanding.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

"Completely transcendent of all human understanding."

Some people would disagree with that statement, but then it would depend on what you mean by completely transcendent of all human understanding.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

Well, yes. Just that I believe that God transcends race, age, gender, etc.

Ultimately *God* is *God*, and is the perfect summation of all that is, and completely transcendent of all human understanding.

of course!!! the only part of God that i can even begin to know, is what he presents of Himself in the Word. and this will still routinely blow your mind.

and how could you ascribe race or age to this genuinely awesome being who has existed from eternity, and will exist for eternity. the gender thing, no, not in the human sense, but in at least a metaphorical or metaphysical sense, as Christ often refers to the church as a bride, and himself as the bridegroom...

 

[szuchy]

God does forgive EVERYONE!

Don't you mean everyone except for the people who reject his gift of forgiveness?

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

Don't you mean everyone except for the people who reject his gift of forgiveness?

sorry, but these people HAD forgiveness, and threw it away. the fault therefore does not lie with God, it lies with man.

if i give you a gift, and you turn it down, or later throw it away, does that change the fact that i gave you the gift?

 

[Mrs. Edge]

Holy moly! I just got back from the ballet and this thread is HUGE! I'm wayyyy too tired to read it all in detail, but someone asked me if I was willing to put my ego aside and believe.

Well sure, but this has nothing to do with my ego!! The point is that if I am going to invest that much time and energy and emotion and well, my whole eternal soul perhaps, then it had better be in something I can truly understand and embrace. I would hope that God wouldn't want me to believe out of fear, but out of genuine feeling. Does God really want me to believe because I have been blackmailed/threatened into it? "Believe OR ELSE!" ???

We have also gone into some very deep discussions that are way beyond the original question, which is great, but I haven't a clue what people are talking about, having never read the Bible, quoting it to me will not mean anything. I don't even know what a Calvinist is! Who is Calvin?

All I really wanted to know was if God would be willing to "get over it" if someone was a non believer and forgive them. I think if he supposedly loves us that much, he SHOULD! I don't see why more people don't agree with me on this.

No one has yet answered my question about why someone who believes and changes their mind gets into heaven, but someone who never did believe does not. THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!!!!!



People also talk a lot about just "accepting" Jesus and it's a piece of cake and here is this gift why don't you take it etc etc...Well it IS a difficult thing to do. When you are a kid and brought up with this stuff it may be no problem but as an adult....well, I find it very hard to just believe in something because someone tells you to. It's like an arranged marriage and your parents say "here is your husband...go love him" I just can't be force fed such things.

I just don't get it. And I think it's grossly unfair that if I were killed tomorrow I would have to be punished forever simply for how I was brought up and for having a questioning mind.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

But in Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, he argued that God is absolutely sovereign and that he "initiates all actions". Calvin introduced the notion that humans are dependent on divine grace, are utterly sinful and powerless to achieve salvation, and the notion that the sovereign God who is both omnisicient and omnipotent, "predestines every person to salvation or damnation".

It doesn't seem to me as if you have any choice at all based on this view.

This is the problem with preaching Calvinism in a debate that involves both Christians and non-believers. I for one don't believe in predestination, and I do believe that people are in control of the most important decisions in their lives - especially choosing Christ.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

There are many christians who have the mercy to forgive non-believers. But God, in all his infinite mercy, cannot find it in his heart to do so?

Then again, I doubt my opinion matters to him, as I have been destined to go to hell since I stopped believing about 7 years ago.

Destined to go to Hell? I don't think we should discuss the Calvinist approach if that's not our God-given duty folks. Do you think the disciples would've won over as many people as they did if they told them that they have NO CONTROL over their afterlife? There are more non-Calvinists on here than there are, and I find the Calvinist theory almost as offensive as a non-believer would.

What did God to do that made you walk away? Whatever it was, God will accept you all over again with open arms, should you choose to turn around. He will offer you the same forgiveness that he gave me.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

Holy moly! I just got back from the ballet and this thread is HUGE! I'm wayyyy too tired to read it all in detail, but someone asked me if I was willing to put my ego aside and believe.

Well sure, but this has nothing to do with my ego!! The point is that if I am going to invest that much time and energy and emotion and well, my whole eternal soul perhaps, then it had better be in something I can truly understand and embrace.


We have also gone into some very deep discussions that are way beyond the original question, which is great, but I haven't a clue what people are talking about, having never read the Bible, quoting it to me will not mean anything. I don't even know what a Calvinist is! Who is Calvin?

All I really wanted to know was if God would be willing to "get over it" if someone was a non believer and forgive them. I think if he supposedly loves us that much, he SHOULD!

No one has yet answered my question about why someone who believes and changes their mind gets into heaven, but someone who never did believe does not. THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!!!!!



People also talk a lot about just "accepting" Jesus and all this....well, I find it very hard to just believe in something because someone tells you to. It's like an arranged marriage and your parents say "here is your husband...go love him" I just can't be force fed such things.

I just don't get it.

great post. i would really recommend reading the Bible, it is the best place to find these answers! if you need a place to start, go for one of the gospels (the first four books of the new testament), john is the one i'd go with. also, if possible, try and find an NIV translation, imo it is the easiest translation to read while still remaining accurate.

if you want to do some other reading, check out some c.s. lewis, maybe "the problem of pain". he is a great author. he started out as an ardent atheist, and was eventually converted, and explains christianity so well and in easy to understand terms. in this particular book, he speaks a lot to the whether or not it is just for God to send some people to hell, while other get to go to heaven. believe me, it is a difficult cooncept to explain, and even more difficult to come to terms with. so, i'd really recommend reading up on the subject, instead of taking a bunch of crazed u2 nuts word for it.

and i'll try to answer your question, as well as possible in this limited space, but definitly do read some other stuff.

here goes: i'm not so sure that someone who did believe, then changes their mind about it does get in to heaven. to me, it is implied that they have rejected their faith. they have turned God down, and by doing so, have forfeited the gift of forgiveness.

so, someone who turns away after a life of faithfulness, is in the same boat as the person who rejected the offer from the beginning.

in the same vein, someone who has been an unbeliever their entire life, but is converted at the end, goes to heaven just the same as a person who has believed all along.

oh, and calvin was a theolgian from the 16th century (help me out guys, is that right?) who taught the notion of double predestination...that is some people are destined for heaven from eternity (the elect) and on the flip side, other people are destined to hell from eternity. this is where you start getting into problems with whether or not God is acting justly. if you want to get a better answer than calvin gives, check out martin luther the guy is a genius.

hope this helps, and remember, Bible-John, c.s. lewis-"problem of pain". you will find some answers there!

 

[Macfistowannabe]

A lot of my questions get great answers in a Study Bible. I think my bible has made me a better Christian.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

This is the problem with preaching Calvinism in a debate that involves both Christians and non-believers. I for one don't believe in predestination, and I do believe that people are in control of the most important decisions in their lives - especially choosing Christ.

of course that is the problem with calvinism!!! double-predestination is crap. instead read some lutheran doctrine!!!

at the same time, i still don't think that we can "choose" God. we cannot choose life, it is a gift from God, the only "choice" that we can make is to turn this gift down.

sola fide, sola gratia, sola scriptura
"by faith alone, by grace alone, by scripture alone" that is the summation of the lutheran faith.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

I think my bible has made me a better Christian.

OF COURSE!!! what better place to get answers, and strengthen your faith then from God himself? right on man!

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I'm a Lutheran at heart, although I attend a non-denominational Christian church. I've read Luther's Small Cathechism, and he's very bright. The only problem I have with denominations is that people spend way too much time preaching Calvinism, Catholicism, or even Lutheranism, much more than Christianity. They all have potential to become an approach of their own, it's not what Jesus' message was about. The gift is simply God's love, which should be talked about much more than God's punishment.