Can God be "the bigger person" when it comes to non-believers? - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

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Old 11-18-2004, 01:42 PM   #31
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Originally posted by kobayashi
this is turning into a q&a with nbc and the sinners.
Careful. I am just as much a sinner as anyone else here.
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Old 11-18-2004, 01:42 PM   #32
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Sounds like you've got a lot on your plate, NB. I've got a few minutes, so I'll jump in.

Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth
Ah, but what about the old days, and people who have never heard about Jesus?
Great question, DrTeeth. For the first part, I believe it's part of what NB said already. Before Jesus lived, obviously belief in Jesus would not have been a requirement for salvation. Thus, biblically speaking, people were judged on their faith and action in following God.

For the second part, it's a little unclear. It is likely that their state falls under the same category as those who lived before Christ, in that their are judged based on their faith and action in following God. There is a large debate on this in Christianity, with the other two options being 1.) they are condemned; 2.) there will be a special scenario that God has planned that we know nothing about.

Quote:
Originally posted by kobayashi
ive never felt a 'need' for God. what does that mean for me?
I would guess that it depends on what you mean by "need for God." Obviously, not everyone has reached some point in their life when they say, "I really need to know Jesus." But I do think that all of us experience regular moments where we say, "I wish this world was a better place." Or, "I long for peace, joy, and satisfaction." I believe that this longing is the longing that God has placed in all of us, a desire that he has implanted so that we will search for him. He knows that we will never find these things apart from him, since he is the creator of these things and their ultimate source.

I don't know if that answered your question at all, but I hope it helped.
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Old 11-18-2004, 01:44 PM   #33
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Originally posted by U2democrat
I don't think anybody knows the ACTUAL answer.
Our answers are limited to what God revealse through Scripture.
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Old 11-18-2004, 01:46 PM   #34
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Careful. I am just as much a sinner as anyone else here.
we are ALL sinners, but that doesn't mean we're all going to go to someplace other than the kingdom of god after we die, simply because NO ONE would get into heaven. God is loving and forgiving, which is comforting to me.
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Old 11-18-2004, 01:50 PM   #35
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Originally posted by MaxFisher
[B]If you are not a believer than why does it matter to you if God will be the bigger person?
First, I wouldn't say I am a non believer, I am undecided and trying to figure it all out. Like Dr. Teeth says, it's the ways people come to these decisions that is interesting.

Why it matters is that if God is supposed to be perfect and all loving, you'd think he could put asside his ego and be willing to forgive and accept ALL the people he created and not pick and choose. Because there are some NON believers who don't believe for a good reason, but that doesn't make them less deserving of entry than a "sinning" believer imo.

I also find it puzzling that someone who believes and then changes their mind has a "get out of jail free" card, but someone who has always been an unbeliever is cast out. You'd think that the former, someone who believes and then changes their mind would be just as "bad" or far worse!
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Old 11-18-2004, 02:00 PM   #36
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what happenes to you when you die.. I think the bible makes quite clear death is a state of non existence, you don't feel or think or know anything you return to the dust... it is likened to a sleep.. When Jesus sacrificed his life it was to rescue us from that state of death by bringing back to life, hell is the grave not some burning torment death is the ultimat punishment for sin


that is the whole reason for the resurrection and the bible states that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous, so that covers those who never got a chance to learn about Jesus so Bono's father is not burning in Hell and he is not in heaven he is asleep in death waiting for Jesus to wake him up in the resurrection


Rom. 5:12, 17,*19: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned

1*Cor. 15:22: “In Adam all are dying.”


Gen. 3:19: “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Eccl. 9:10: “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very
power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor
wisdom in Sheol [“the grave,” KJ, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV], the place to which you are going.”

Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all

Eccl. 9:6: “Their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.”

John 5:28,*29: “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice [the voice of Jesus] and come out

Acts 24:15: “I have hope toward God .*.*. that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

John 11:11,*14-44: “[Jesus said to his disciples:] ‘Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.’*.*.*. Jesus said to them outspokenly: ‘Lazarus has died.’*.*.*. When Jesus arrived, he found he [Lazarus] had already been four days in the memorial tomb. .*.*. Jesus said to her [Martha, a sister of Lazarus]: ‘I am the resurrection and the life.’*.*.*. He cried out with a loud voice: ‘Lazarus, come on out!’ The man that had been dead came out with his feet and hands bound with wrappings, and his countenance was bound about with a cloth. Jesus said to them: ‘Loose him and let him go.

check your own bibles too ...hope this helps
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Old 11-18-2004, 02:02 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
Why it matters is that if God is supposed to be perfect and all loving, you'd think he could put asside his ego and be willing to forgive and accept ALL the people he created and not pick and choose. Because there are some NON believers who don't believe for a good reason, but that doesn't make them less deserving of entry than a "sinning" believer imo.
When we say God is Holy, it means that God cannot have sin in His presense.

Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. When God looks at the believe, He does not see us, he sees Jesus.

Thus, we can be admitted into His presense.
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Old 11-18-2004, 02:02 PM   #38
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There is a difference between Christian sects and denominations when it comes to this. Some believe that you do not need to be Christian to be saved. Therefore when you read people's posts here, you should keep in mind that what they are saying is not an absolute truth in the Christian world.
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Old 11-18-2004, 02:05 PM   #39
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I'm not arguing from a certain sects perspective. I am working from Scripture.

There are some who reject portions or passages. There are others who add new passages.

I think there is no room around Jesus' own words in John 14:6.
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Old 11-18-2004, 02:10 PM   #40
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
I think there is no room around Jesus' own words in John 14:6. [/B]
Many people, including scholars would disagree with you on a number of accounts. Just from personal memory of courses I'd taken - some argue that you cannot possibly assert with 100% certainty that Jesus said this (or other things attributed to him) verbatim, some argue that you cannot assert that Jesus was speaking universally rather than to the local population struggling with particular issues at that particular time in the world's history, etc.
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Old 11-18-2004, 02:14 PM   #41
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yes, that's my whole problem with this. it's always the certainty with which faith is professed, when the existence of faith necessarily implies having doubt. otherwise you'd know, and i don't think even people of strong faith can say that they "know," only that they believe, and this should necessarily extend to respect for all other religions -- this respect coming from the bond that should be created by people of faith, as opposed to members of the same religion. faith comes from thought, and is a powerful thing. i cannot, for example, trust a line of thought that is punctuated by the line "this is what i believe." i can, however, trust (though not necessarily agree with) a line of thought that is punctuated by the line "this is what i think." the former is passive, the latter is active. i'm sure there are many people out there who have examined their faith, and i suppose i am sympathetic to someone who does this first, and then actively chooses to believe something. that is evidence of an active mind, and perhaps quite empowering as well -- choice is evidence of freedom and autonomy. but the awareness of the fact that a "choice" has been made must necessarily include seeds of doubt, which should then, theoretically, undermine any assertion of the superiority of one's faith over another, and ultimately be a simultaneously empowering and humbling act. it's one thing to believe, it is another to choose to have faith.
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Old 11-18-2004, 02:14 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
Many people, including scholars would disagree with you on a number of accounts. Just from personal memory of courses I'd taken - some argue that you cannot possibly assert with 100% certainty that Jesus said this (or other things attributed to him) verbatim, some argue that you cannot assert that Jesus was speaking universally rather than to the local population struggling with particular issues at that particular time in the world's history, etc.
In that case, we can disassemble and discard the entire Gospel, creating God in our own image - all in the name of scholarship.
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Old 11-18-2004, 02:16 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by stammer476
For the second part, it's a little unclear. It is likely that their state falls under the same category as those who lived before Christ, in that their are judged based on their faith and action in following God. There is a large debate on this in Christianity, with the other two options being 1.) they are condemned; 2.) there will be a special scenario that God has planned that we know nothing about.
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
When we say God is Holy, it means that God cannot have sin in His presense.

Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. When God looks at the believe, He does not see us, he sees Jesus.

Thus, we can be admitted into His presense.
So if for whatever reason you've never heard of Jesus, you are either screwed, or God has some kind of back-up plan in which case I don't understand why he doesn't apply it to everyone but sent his son to die for us instead. Here is where all of this stops making sense to me.
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Old 11-18-2004, 02:17 PM   #44
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
In that case, we can disassemble and discard the entire Gospel, creating God in our own image - all in the name of scholarship.
I think that's an overly simplistic way of looking at things.

And your argument does partially arise from a specific sect point of view, because you are basing it entirely on Scripture, when the majority of the world's Christians do not see the Bible as the final authority. Whether you agree or disagree with that, I think it's important to point out the dogmatic differences.
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Old 11-18-2004, 02:20 PM   #45
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Simplistic perhaps, but a logical extension of what religion creates. New sets of rules, new authorities, new beliefs.

I guess we would have to open a discussion of what constitutes a Christian and the belief set that is indisputable.
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