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Old 11-19-2004, 02:13 PM   #196
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shrmn8rpoptart so rightly asks me, "what are you looking for?"....i'm looking for truth. i know that sounds lame, but i'm just being honest. I want truth and I think truth should sound at least a little more logical than christianity, afterall didn't God give me the abilitity to reason? (again, I doubt that God used any sort of hands and bestowed reason to me as a personal gift...but you get the picture)
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:17 PM   #197
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I would say that with all this looking for the truth....stop it.

Start answering GOD'S call to your heart. Start with something basic, like the Sermon on the Mount. Live and walk the walk of someone who loves your neighbor.

Don't be on the sidelines waiting for the truth to hit you like an anvil. GODS grace is BIGGER than any DOCTRINE or TRUTH that we choose to believe or not believe, the message and living the message is more important than believing in a DOCTRINE.
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:18 PM   #198
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Off to the conference.......prayers accepted.
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:19 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
here's what i think my problem is: it's not the message, but the messangers.

i admire faith, but to assert faith as fact without acknowledging the very human choice to belive, to have faith, is a bit disconcerting. without acknowledging any doubt or any struggles you -- here, the "believers" -- have had while on your road to faith, it sounds like you're blindly repeating what someone else has told you. i feel certain that all believers on this list have thought long and hard about these things, i just wish it were reflected more when they actually write about faith. the more doubts you express about your faith, the more likely i am to take what you say about your faith seriously.

these declarative statements: "Heaven is not a reward, it's chance for those who know God, to be with him on a new earth" make me far more skeptical of the message because of the certainty of the messanger. doubt and struggle are evidence of an active mind, in my opinion.
if this is what you want, seriously go read some c.s. lewis, one of the greatest Christian apologists of our time! you find everything that you said you were looking for in his works. here are some titles that are especially apt for this discussion:
The Problem of Pain-(summary from the back of the book) "why must we suffer? "If God is good and all-powerful, why does he allow his creatures to suffer pain?" And what of the suffering of animals, who neither deserve pain nor can be imporved by it? The greatest Christian thinker or our time sets out to disentangle this knotty issue. With his signature compassion and insight, c.s. lewis offers answers to these crucial questions and shares his hope and wisdom to help heal a world hungering for a true understanding of human nature."

A Grief Observed-this book is the journal he kept of his thoughts when his wife died. he curses God, and practically recants his faith at times-yet he is able to find peace and hope in the Word of God. he deals very heavily of issues of life and death in this book.

also check around for some of his essays, they are fantastic as well. "God in the Dock" would work particularly well in this case.

and this was a man who spent a lot of the first half of his life as an atheist, as someone whose admited goal was to prove Christianity wrong. this man has struggled with his faith just as all Christians do. when i read him i take great comfort in knowing that this guy went through the same troubles that i am. i think anyone would be able to find much of the same by reading him.
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:19 PM   #200
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It's not like while I'm searching for truth I'm also hating my neighbor. Yes, I should stop searching for truth, I should ignore parts of the Sermon on the Mount when jesus talks about asking.
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:21 PM   #201
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Originally posted by blueyedpoet
It's not like while I'm searching for truth I'm also hating my neighbor. Yes, I should stop searching for truth, I should ignore parts of the Sermon on the Mount when jesus talks about asking.
If I somehow offended you...that was not my intent. peace
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:23 PM   #202
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the more doubts you express about your faith, the more likely i am to take what you say about your faith seriously.
Some people got way to much confidence baby.

I hear ya.
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:24 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally posted by blueyedpoet
shrmn8rpoptart so rightly asks me, "what are you looking for?"....i'm looking for truth. i know that sounds lame, but i'm just being honest. I want truth and I think truth should sound at least a little more logical than christianity, afterall didn't God give me the abilitity to reason? (again, I doubt that God used any sort of hands and bestowed reason to me as a personal gift...but you get the picture)
ah this reminded me...another book to read is lewis's "pilgrim's regress". it is a fictional portrayal of his journey to find truth. it's kind of a fantasy story (not as much as the chronicles of narnia though, yet they are fantastic as well) and he speaks to the very issues that you bring up, and does so much more eloquently and lucidly than i could ever hope to.
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:28 PM   #204
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and "mere christianity" how did i forget that?
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:29 PM   #205
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"If I somehow offended you...that was not my intent. peace"

As another great Irish man would say "Keep cool my babies" - Conan, if ya didn't know.

I think I hear what you're saying, I'm just very critical of the idea of not searching.
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:34 PM   #206
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funny thing is, I am sitting on a bed with "The Quotable Lewis."
Yeah, i'm a giant fan of that man's mind. I even sat where he Tolkien and others in their Oxford circle would sit on Tuesday's, discuss matters and drink a pint, oh and smoke a whole lot....anyways I've read a lof of his material...Mere Christianity to Problem of Pain. I just feel he makes so assertions that I feel are to grand of leaps.
Someone earlier was talking about how honesty in their faith is more appealing than straight easy answers, Lewis's A Grief Observed is far clearer about the problem of pain than the book aptly titled Problem of Pain
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:41 PM   #207
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i think you are right on "a grief observed" because he had finally been delt some pain. i guess he acknowledges in "problem of" that he probably isn't the best guy to be writing on the subject either. anyways it kicks ass to find another lewis fan!

anyways, i think if you were to sit down and have a face to face with most true believers, you will find that their faith is the hardest part of their lives. i know it is for me. but then again it was never meant to be easy. as a Christian i am daily called to take up my cross.

and if you really want to read about a guy whose faith caused him major struggles, there is always martin luther! this guy was to the point of killing himself because he was convinced that he had been predestined to hell, and that nothing in his life could amount to any good. then, he happened upon the love of the gospel, and the story goes on from there.
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:45 PM   #208
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i just don't like how Luther hid when the peasants revolted.....totally off topic.......since we're talking about christian authors people ought to check out Phillip Yancey. He wrote that book Bono gave Noel Gallagher What's So Amazing about Grace? Although, that happens to be a bit of a disappointment....first half of that book is great, the latter sinks a bit. Nevertheless, Yancey has some great books.
where did all the skeptics go???
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:51 PM   #209
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hmm...i will have to check that out. as soon as i get some money for new books that is...or maybe i could break down and go to the library.
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:55 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe


Someone like Se7en has a lot of skepticism, but I think that if he went to a church service and had a chat with the pastor, he might come to understand how faith in God works.
i wonder if you know how many church services i attended in the first 19 years of my life. more than i care to count. been there, done that.

faith in which/who's god?

ps. i think some of you misunderstood my post on prayer. i was not suggesting i am in need of a genie, in fact the genie mentality is what bothers me most about prayer. i've just come to the conclusion that god answers no prayers. and again, i am not bitter about that in the least.
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