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Old 11-19-2004, 10:12 AM   #166
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
However, Jesus lived a perfect, sinless, flawless life that none of us humans can achieve, whether or not we believe in God.

then was he even human?
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:14 AM   #167
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then was he even human?
Fully God and fully man. He understood what it was like to preach truth and be hated for it. He understands human pain and suffering far better than I do.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:21 AM   #168
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dear, not "unwittingly" -- this is exactly what i was talking about.

what you say sounds positively looney tunes unless you accept on faith the tenets of Christianity. if you don't, and you step back and take a look at Christianity (or any religion), you'll see that it operates just like any self-contained thought system. you assert absolute certainty, but not everyone shares it.

also, it seems to me that God took the human form in Christ, not Christ taking the human form, since he is the human god. or at least that's what i took from 10 years of sunday school.

but take a step back and try and look at Christ and Christanity as a skeptic, not a believer. look at the words you use -- mercy, wisdom, grace. all human characteristics. what i'm saying is that i can accept the idea of God, the Infinite, whatever you want to call it. i'm agnostic -- i know there's as much evidence for or against the existence of God (there isn't any either way). however, religion is entirely a human construction, and Christ is an extention of this human creation.

it's getting a little chicken and egg here ... but i think the existence of God is far more important than, and operates independently of, Christianity.
your last sentence is one that i think with any amount of thought, most Christians would agree upon. God is an infinite, omnipresent, omnipowerful entity who (i know it should be that, who is a pronoun used to describe a human, but sorry, who just flows more naturally to me when i write) has existed from eternity, and will continue to exist for eternity. we know nothing of God's infinite majesty and wisdom, are minds are entirely to simple to grasp these infinite qualities, except, from what the Bible gives us. The Bible is God telling us about Himself! it is allowing us a peek at His infinite majesty, as it applies to us.

and i apologize for the unwittingly comment. up until then, this discussion had existed on a level where we only discussed the matter at hand, not making uneducated guesses as to another's intentions. i am sorry, and from this point on will stick to only to the subject.

also you talk about how "looney tuney" Christianity looks from the outside. of course it does! that is why i find it bizzare when people claim to be for the "Jesus message" but don't think Christianity is true. someone who makes this statement (sorry, i'm reading into a hypothetical life that i can't really make a judgement on...) has apparently not read the words of Christ, and do not know what Jesus' message was. and this whole notion of appearing strange from the outside is precisely where belief comes into play. if everything made complete logical sense, and we naturally understood it, at some point it stops being a belief and starts becoming knowledge, and Christianity cannot fully exist in the realm of knowledge, it is a matter of faith!
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:22 AM   #169
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Fully God and fully man. He understood what it was like to preach truth and be hated for it. He understands human pain and suffering far better than I do.

how could he undestand human pain and suffering if he lived a perfect, flawless life? wouldn't the story be more compelling, more amazing, if the real Christ were closer to Scorsese's version than these dew-eyed, Anglo, sanitized historical reimaginings that we're so sentimental about?
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:27 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



how could he undestand human pain and suffering if he lived a perfect, flawless life? wouldn't the story be more compelling, more amazing, if the real Christ were closer to Scorsese's version than these dew-eyed, Anglo, sanitized historical reimaginings that we're so sentimental about?
His disciples were beheaded, imprisoned, and tortured for spreading his word, yet they preached the good news anyhow. Imagine their faith and courage in a world that's possibly worse than the one we live in today! Not to mention, he went through a crucifixion - A VERY BRUTAL ONE. There are Christians who believe his crucifixion was much worse than the horror that we saw in The Passion Of The Christ.

I don't know if I answered your question or not, but for sure, Jesus knows unlimited knowledge about pain and suffering, yet he shared the good news and never sinned once.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:30 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



how could he undestand human pain and suffering if he lived a perfect, flawless life? wouldn't the story be more compelling, more amazing, if the real Christ were closer to Scorsese's version than these dew-eyed, Anglo, sanitized historical reimaginings that we're so sentimental about?
he understood pain and suffering because he was executed in one of the most gruesome and painful methods possible! he was an innocent man who suffered and died.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:57 AM   #172
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How about prayer?
so if i ask god, it'll just tell me? where's the faith in that?

i prayed consciously for years and objectively, i don't think a single one was answered directly by god. here and there what i hoped for turned out in that way but there are always reasonable explanations for such things. that is not to say that i am bitter, i just don't think god answers prayers at all. i guess it just makes people feel better thinking they have this open communication with a deity - someone who is always there to talk to and who loves us infinitely. again, not to deny either possibility - but there is no proof of it. personally i think god is out there and cares in some abstract form about what it has created but i simply don't believe in two way communication - the deity has already given us everything we need.

i see elsewhere that now the mysterious trinity has been evoked. good luck with that discussion irvine - no amount of reason will help you. there is no explaning the holy trinity. just accept the mystery of god and follow along. also, don't pay attention to the 'pagan' trinities on which the christian example is modeled.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:57 AM   #173
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he understood pain and suffering because he was executed in one of the most gruesome and painful methods possible! he was an innocent man who suffered and died.

so do lots of people, back then and now. the point still stands: if jesus lived a perfect life, i don't see how he could be human, and therefore how he could understand pain and suffering more than other humans.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:59 AM   #174
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I believe that God answers prayer with three different answers: Yes, No, and Now is not the time.
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Old 11-19-2004, 11:02 AM   #175
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Originally posted by Se7en


so if i ask god, it'll just tell me? where's the faith in that?

...

i see elsewhere that now the mysterious trinity has been evoked. good luck with that discussion irvine - no amount of reason will help you. there is no explaning the holy trinity. just accept the mystery of god and follow along. also, don't pay attention to the 'pagan' trinities on which the christian example is modeled.
hey se7en, i hear you. i'm trying to further my own knowledge and understand how others see things. i generally agree with you -- my basic stand is that there might be a God, there might not be a God, i sure hope there is one. but i don't know, so honesty makes me an agnostic. religion, however, is a human construction and is necessarily flawed like humans, it fufills needs, and is a wonderful tool for those in power to use to exploit and oppress both the poor members of their on congregations and justify killing those who are different.

and i agree about prayer. i think prayer helps those who pray, and that's about it. that always struck me as odd -- treating God, or Jesus, as some sort of vending machine or santa claus. don't pray, *do*.
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Old 11-19-2004, 11:02 AM   #176
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Originally posted by Irvine511



so do lots of people, back then and now. the point still stands: if jesus lived a perfect life, i don't see how he could be human, and therefore how he could understand pain and suffering more than other humans.
He felt beatings, betrayal, and injustice the same way we do. He is also fully God, and he knows pain and suffering on a level that exceeds beyond what any human being could possibly comprehend.
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Old 11-19-2004, 11:09 AM   #177
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Originally posted by Se7en


so if i ask god, it'll just tell me? where's the faith in that?

i prayed consciously for years and objectively, i don't think a single one was answered directly by god. here and there what i hoped for turned out in that way but there are always reasonable explanations for such things. that is not to say that i am bitter, i just don't think god answers prayers at all. i guess it just makes people feel better thinking they have this open communication with a deity - someone who is always there to talk to and who loves us infinitely. again, not to deny either possibility - but there is no proof of it. personally i think god is out there and cares in some abstract form about what it has created but i simply don't believe in two way communication - the deity has already given us everything we need.

i see elsewhere that now the mysterious trinity has been evoked. good luck with that discussion irvine - no amount of reason will help you. there is no explaning the holy trinity. just accept the mystery of god and follow along. also, don't pay attention to the 'pagan' trinities on which the christian example is modeled.
so, let me try to understand, if God doesn't answer your prayers in the manner you would like them to be, then He doesn't exist. but, if things do happen the way you wanted them, God obviously had nothing to do with it? if this is how you analyze the efficacy of prayer, then there is no possible way that you would atribute anything to God.

also the point of prayer is not to have God magically grant your every wish. if this is what you're looking for, go find a lamp to rub. God is not a slave to your will. just because something doesn't happen the way you had hoped doesn't mean have to mean that God ignored your request. it is entirely possible that God considered your requests and said "no".

if someone wants to discuss the trinity, i'm down. we can discuss whatever you like. i promise to be open minded and consider your arguments on your playing field if you will give me the same courtesy. if neither side is willing to agree to a common ground for discussion (and on matters of faith this is exceedingly difficult to find), then no positive debate can result, and it turns into both sides hanging back and slinging snide remarks at each other. but like i said, we can give the discussion a go and see where we end up!
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Old 11-19-2004, 11:16 AM   #178
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Originally posted by Irvine511



so do lots of people, back then and now. the point still stands: if jesus lived a perfect life, i don't see how he could be human, and therefore how he could understand pain and suffering more than other humans.
by human, it is simply meant that Jesus was born into the world in the full form of a human. his body was human just like yours and mine. the difference is that His will was not corrupted (like the rest of us humans are, as your post would suggest, you agree that to be human is to be sinful). He endured the the infirmities, frailities, pain, and suffering the come with existing inside of a human body. His body was not perfect any more than mine is. yet, his will was not corrupt, he kept the commandments, and did His Father's will, which are things that we cannot. this is what a Christian means when they say Jesus lived a perfect life.
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Old 11-19-2004, 11:19 AM   #179
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Right on. God is not a genie or a slave. He's greater than we are, and unfortunately, some people simply cannot accept that.

Someone like Se7en has a lot of skepticism, but I think that if he went to a church service and had a chat with the pastor, he might come to understand how faith in God works.
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Old 11-19-2004, 12:05 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Someone like Se7en has a lot of skepticism, but I think that if he went to a church service and had a chat with the pastor, he might come to understand how faith in God works.
I went to church when I was younger, even chose to get baptized when I was in my teens and now at the tender age of 26 I'm more skeptical than ever. I've had my share of pastors and I just don't buy it.
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