Can God be "the bigger person" when it comes to non-believers? - Page 11 - U2 Feedback

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Old 11-19-2004, 08:23 AM   #151
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For all the efforts to learn and understand, it is surprising that you would leave this subject as an unknown.
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Old 11-19-2004, 08:32 AM   #152
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
For all the efforts to learn and understand, it is surprising that you would leave this subject as an unknown.

i think about it all the time, everyone wonders about it and it seems a pretty natural thing for a human being to do. i'm just comfortable with the knowledge that i cannot know, but i can theorize and speculate and write and paint and draw and imagine what life after death (or, death after death) is like, but at the end of the day, human comprehension only goes so far.

it also strikes me that this, combined with fear, are religion's two main selling points.

not God, *religion*.
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Old 11-19-2004, 08:37 AM   #153
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outside of religious texts, how is there any way to learn about or understand any possible consciousness after death?
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Old 11-19-2004, 09:01 AM   #154
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Originally posted by Se7en
outside of religious texts, how is there any way to learn about or understand any possible consciousness after death?
How about prayer?
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Old 11-19-2004, 09:01 AM   #155
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Originally posted by Irvine511
it also strikes me that this, combined with fear, are religion's two main selling points.

not God, *religion*.
I'm against both fear and religion.

Fear, because that's not what we are called to preach. Love is what we are called to preach. Being saved from our sins, and truth is what we are also called to preach. Same thing with eternity, Christians must believe that we will meet face to face with Jesus, and nothing should stop us from preaching that.

The religion, because it involves the complicated Catholic or Calvinist approach, when the message should be simplified so that, like Irvine511 said, we should be on the same planet. We should talk about the simplicity of unconditional love. We should talk about how we can get forgiveness if we confess our sins. People are lost because they believe that God is going to punish them for something they've done. God will forgive any sin, no matter how wicked, as long as it is confessed wholeheartedly and the sinner is remourseful.

There is a thick line between faith and religion. Faith is bigger, whereas religion is tiny. Religion is simply putting human doctorine before God's.
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Old 11-19-2004, 09:02 AM   #156
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Originally posted by Irvine511
it also strikes me that this, combined with fear, are religion's two main selling points.
Interesting, because when I came to faith in Christ, it was not about fearing death or a bonus afterlife. It was about realizing that my creator loves me.
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Old 11-19-2004, 09:07 AM   #157
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Interesting, because when I came to faith in Christ, it was not about fearing death or a bonus afterlife. It was about realizing that my creator loves me.

see, this is what i don't get. why is there a need to humanize the infinite? why do we need to apply human characteristics upon things we don't understand, and are inequipped to understand? this is not to negate a belief in the infinite, or of life after death, or really any of the big ideas behind religion. it's a need of humanity to put these things in human terns. understandable, no doubt.

to me, the big idea is God. Christ strikes me as window dressing.
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Old 11-19-2004, 09:12 AM   #158
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Also, God made laws so that we would all admit that we fall short of perfection. His laws were not meant to scare us away from him. My Christian faith has helped me let go of my ego, and has allowed me to have a moral compass.
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Old 11-19-2004, 09:19 AM   #159
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Originally posted by Irvine511
see, this is what i don't get. why is there a need to humanize the infinite? why do we need to apply human characteristics upon things we don't understand, and are inequipped to understand? this is not to negate a belief in the infinite, or of life after death, or really any of the big ideas behind religion. it's a need of humanity to put these things in human terns. understandable, no doubt.
This wasn't our doing, but God's. He's the one who decided to take his infinite self and make it understandable to our human minds. He knew there was a gap between our world and his, and so he created the necessary bridge.

If you were God, wouldn't you make some effort for your creation to understand you?
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Old 11-19-2004, 09:28 AM   #160
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This is easily my favorite thread. It has united many of us.
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Old 11-19-2004, 09:54 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



see, this is what i don't get. why is there a need to humanize the infinite? why do we need to apply human characteristics upon things we don't understand, and are inequipped to understand? this is not to negate a belief in the infinite, or of life after death, or really any of the big ideas behind religion. it's a need of humanity to put these things in human terns. understandable, no doubt.

to me, the big idea is God. Christ strikes me as window dressing.
you have unwittingly stumbled upon the crux of the Christian faith! okay, Christ is God, along with the Father, and the Holy Spirit, they are all three seperate, yet they are one. no this does not make sense. it is an illogical leap that faith requires, one of those things that "we don't undertand, and are inequipped to understand."

now, Christians did not project human characterestics onto Christ. it is precisely the opposite. in His infinite mercy, wisdom, and grace, Chris was sent, by the Father, into the world as a human. Christ took the human form Himself! there was no need for us to "humanize the infinite" he did it Himself.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:04 AM   #162
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And with his sacrifice, we can come to God the Father through Christ because he died on the cross. Had he not died, we would still be separated from God.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:04 AM   #163
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
you have unwittingly stumbled upon the crux of the Christian faith! okay, Christ is God, along with the Father, and the Holy Spirit, they are all three seperate, yet they are one. no this does not make sense. it is an illogical leap that faith requires, one of those things that "we don't undertand, and are inequipped to understand."

now, Christians did not project human characterestics onto Christ. it is precisely the opposite. in His infinite mercy, wisdom, and grace, Chris was sent, by the Father, into the world as a human. Christ took the human form Himself! there was no need for us to "humanize the infinite" he did it Himself.

dear, not "unwittingly" -- this is exactly what i was talking about.

what you say sounds positively looney tunes unless you accept on faith the tenets of Christianity. if you don't, and you step back and take a look at Christianity (or any religion), you'll see that it operates just like any self-contained thought system. you assert absolute certainty, but not everyone shares it.

also, it seems to me that God took the human form in Christ, not Christ taking the human form, since he is the human god. or at least that's what i took from 10 years of sunday school.

but take a step back and try and look at Christ and Christanity as a skeptic, not a believer. look at the words you use -- mercy, wisdom, grace. all human characteristics. what i'm saying is that i can accept the idea of God, the Infinite, whatever you want to call it. i'm agnostic -- i know there's as much evidence for or against the existence of God (there isn't any either way). however, religion is entirely a human construction, and Christ is an extention of this human creation.

it's getting a little chicken and egg here ... but i think the existence of God is far more important than, and operates independently of, Christianity.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:09 AM   #164
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Going from an agnostic to a believer is a matter of faith. Same thing with believing in Jesus' outrageous claims. I admit that if a human told me that I couldn't come to God without him, I would think he was nuts. However, Jesus lived a perfect, sinless, flawless life that none of us humans can achieve, whether or not we believe in God.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:10 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en
until i am proven otherwise i will accept that revealed religion is the creation of god in man's image. consider me a doubting thomas if you will, but if jesus appears to me bearing wounds from the cross then i'll believe. thomas had that opportunity - i think we all should. [/i]
the problem with your statements are this: if Jesus appeared to you bearing wounds from the cross, you would still not believe. you would know. there is a difference between knowledge and belief. belief requires a faith in something that cannot be known. say for instance, that having never met you, you tell me that you have red hair. if i trust you as an honest person, and have faith in your statement, then it can be said that i believe you have red hair. if however, i were to meet you, and saw that you have red hair, then i would know you have red hair.

so, what you are demanding is a knowledge of God. this is a tremendous stumbling block to us as humans. we like to have proof, we like to have reasons for what hold to be true. Christianity does not give us this. instead God has placed the requirement on us that we believe. He does not require us to do anything (goodworks, etc.). He gives us the gift of faith, and along with faith comes forgiveness, justification, salvation, and sanctification.

yet some people will not be satisfied. they will continue to doubt. to say "if God won't reveal Himself to me, then forget it, i don't want any part of that." and God, in His divine justice, will give you your wish. He will allow you to be apart from Him from eternity, just as you desired.
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