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Old 10-19-2005, 01:24 PM   #46
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


i don't agree... that very much is part of this conversation. the NFL's wardrobe rules aren't headline news... neither are those of certain major league baseball teams. but because basketball is inherently considered to be a "black" sport, both by whites and blacks alike, anytime a rule like this comes up it is debated wether or not it is "racist."

Wow, what a leap. I haven't heard one person in HERE make any of these arguments.
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:27 PM   #47
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Wow, what a leap. I haven't heard one person in HERE make any of these arguments.
the fact that we're discussing it backs up my argument.
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:29 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


the fact that we're discussing it backs up my argument.
Please explain, how us discussing a dress code means we all think NBA is a black sport?

We can't debate an issue as is without context of other professional sports?
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:30 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
the fact that we're discussing it backs up my argument.
I will say, from my end, that this was never my argument. I always thought of it in terms of individuals within the NBA. In general, I have some qualms over "uniforms," because, by definition, that means that somebody's cultural standards are going to be deemed "better" than anyone else's, and that usually means the rather conservative white standards.

If a white NBA player wants to wear a mullet, I'm all for it. If a black NBA player wants to wear chains, I'm all for it.

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Old 10-19-2005, 01:31 PM   #50
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So then I ask again where else do we take it? Make them only wear navy suits? All the same ties?

If we're really that worried about individuality, then let's eliminate tatoos on the court, certain hair lengths, etc.

This has nothing to do with individuality.

And yes I watch a lot of basketball and I know what people are wearing on the sidelines.
but they're not doing that... how come everyone always has to go with the "what's next" approach.

the NBA is simply returning to what used to be an unwritten expectation and/or team enforced rule. but now that the players are so over-payed, they've baisicly begun to ignore these rules. this is the nba attempting to reverse that.

the nba also has rules re: sneaker color, short length, socks, headbands/wristbands, warmups, practice jerseys. are these rules also racist?

and on that subject... the new york yankees do have rules regarding tattoos and hair length.
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:42 PM   #51
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ahhh... when someone in the media puts a simple caption, even though it was in all likelyhood done without intent, there is some inherent, hidden racist notion that caused whitey to say that the black guy was looting.

but there is absolutely no inherent perception in the minds of the majority of american's that basketball is a "black" sport.

i see.



this entire argument started over a quote made by a man who's past actions and quotes have proven that he is out of touch with reality.

the fact of the matter is that most nba players have come out publicly saying that they have no problem with this rule what-so-ever... just a few quotes...

Quote:
"No it's not a big deal, not to me. Sometimes you feel lazy and you don't feel like putting some clothes on, but this is a job. We are going to have fun, but this is a job and we should look like we're going to work, that's the way they feel."
-- Cavs swingman LeBron James, quoted in the Oct. 19 Cleveland Plain Dealer

"Personally, I like it. I like to dress up. I kind of came in [the league] when it was ... sort of an unwritten code or law or whatever, that you look nice. It even got to the extreme, with guys [who] would go all out with the designer clothes and so forth. It was a little weird, the NBA turned into a fashion show. But I think it's good."
-- Magic forward Grant Hill, quoted in the Oct. 19 Washington Post

"I mean, it's cool. It's not real harsh. It just changes the image a little. Guys just got to grow up I guess. They're just trying to exclude some things. It's simple to me. Guys need to go out and buy some clothes and start something new.''
-- Celtics guard Ricky Davis, quoted in the Oct. 19 Boston Herald

"You knew it was coming in. I've got a couple of suits in the closet I've got to dust off. Hey, they make the rules; you've got to abide by them.''
-- Celtics swingman Paul Pierce, quoted in the Oct. 19 Boston Herald
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:48 PM   #52
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I think maybe the Ron Borges article sums it up best, and the commissioner is just avoiding this issue by worrying about chains and "hiphop" clothes. Like I said, is that what makes a player's "reputation" ?

"But what he fails to realize that it's not the attire that is the problem. It's the headlines.

Not once can I recall a headline that said: "NBA star arrested for baggy jeans.''

Not once can I recall a headline that said: "NBA star sued by girlfriend for wearing hooded sweatshirt.''

Not once can I recall a headline that said: "NBA stars leap into stands to attack fashion police.''

Not once can I recall a headline that said: "NBA star accused of carrying a concealed cardigan.''

The problem has nothing to do with what the players wear, but everything to do with how they think and act. Do you think the fans would have felt any different about Ron Artest if he'd been wearing a three-piece suit when he entered that stands in Detroit last year? "


And basketball to me is not a "black sport". I grew up being a fanatic about a team that had white players like Larry Bird and Kevin McHale and players like Robert Parish and Dennis Johnson. I still don't think of it as a "black sport". Some white men can still jump
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:52 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Wow, what a leap. I haven't heard one person in HERE make any of these arguments.
Early in the thread, the suggestion was made:

Quote:
it does play into old racist ideas -- that african-americans, specifically males, are essentially hired entertainers, jokers or jesters or singers or dancers or gladiators, for rich white people. the rich white people want to be entertained and to marvel at feats of athleticism or musicality or whatever, but they don't want to put up with that which they might find uncouth, or unsettling, or something that's upsetting to strict notions of decorum in white upper-middle class society.
It is part of the latent ideas expressed here.
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:56 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


the other professional sport leagues have similar guidelines, if not flat out rules. is it racist of the yankees to have randy johnson cut his mullet to conform with the team guidelines? and does it hurt that it looks better for corporte sponsors? of course not... i'd be silly to say it doesn't.

try looking at the NFL's rules re: clothing, on the field and off. they're as hardcore as it gets. if you wear the wrong color socks you get fined. when peyton manning wore black cleats in honor of the death of johnny unitas, he was fined by the NFL. dress codes in sports, both on the field and off, are nothing new.
The NHL's dress code for players is very strict. They are expected to wear casual business attire in and out of the arena, and even on the plane. They can't even kick back in a pair of jeans and a sweatshirt while flying between cities. If they are injured and come to watch the game, same rules apply.

And yes, several of the white European males (particularly from Eastern Europe for some reason) wear chains. If it is part of a culture, it's part of professional sports culture--I have lots of money, and I am going to display it in a gaudy way.

If more players were wearing them on and off the ice, and in "excess," I imagine the NHL would crack down on it. I'm rather surprised they haven't given how easily one could get a stick caught in them.

The NHL is, without a doubt, the whitest sport there is...and they have a dress code. So no, I don't think it is racist to require business casual. I think the leagues take it a little too far (if I've just played a game and hop a plane to fly to Montreal, the last thing I'd want to wear is a suit) but they are a professional organization. You're being paid a ton of money...so if they want you to wear Dockers, wear the Dockers.

If they were banning specifically ethnic displays--dreadlocks, for example, then I would say they had a valid complaint.
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Old 10-19-2005, 02:03 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


but they're not doing that... how come everyone always has to go with the "what's next" approach.

the NBA is simply returning to what used to be an unwritten expectation and/or team enforced rule. but now that the players are so over-payed, they've baisicly begun to ignore these rules. this is the nba attempting to reverse that.
WTF? Unwritten expectation?

You mean like Magic Johnson in his bright purple suits, Michael Jordan with his large hoop earrings before any NBA player were wearing them, Cuban in jeans and T-shirts, Shaq in his bright yellow baggy suits w/ matching hats...Dennis Rodman? Sounds like an unwritten expectation of no individuals to me...



Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


the nba also has rules re: sneaker color, short length, socks, headbands/wristbands, warmups, practice jerseys. are these rules also racist?

On the court it makes sense. There are safety reasons, TV issues, and team issues.
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Old 10-19-2005, 02:12 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


WTF? Unwritten expectation?

You mean like Magic Johnson in his bright purple suits, Michael Jordan with his large hoop earrings before any NBA player were wearing them, Cuban in jeans and T-shirts, Shaq in his bright yellow baggy suits w/ matching hats...Dennis Rodman? Sounds like an unwritten expectation of no individuals to me...
That is why they are implementing this dress code. Look at the players before Shaq and Rodman arrived on the scene. They were dressed up on the sidelines. Then came an erosion of the dress code. All Stern is doing is bringing the NBA back to where it was. The players today all wear suits at the draft, so why can't they wear one for team related activities.
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Old 10-19-2005, 02:18 PM   #57
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


WTF? Unwritten expectation?

You mean like Magic Johnson in his bright purple suits, Michael Jordan with his large hoop earrings before any NBA player were wearing them, Cuban in jeans and T-shirts, Shaq in his bright yellow baggy suits w/ matching hats...Dennis Rodman? Sounds like an unwritten expectation of no individuals to me...
THEY ARE NOT SAYING DON'T WEAR BRIGHT PURPLE SUITS.

just like in business, there are people who have style, and those who do not. michael jordan is EXACTLY what the nba wants. he was the epitome of style on and off the court. what you described... i.e. magic johnson, michael jordan and shaq... what they wore is 100% acceptable under this new policy, with the exception of shaq's derby hat.

david stern won't be handing out fines for those who simply can't dress.
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Old 10-19-2005, 02:19 PM   #58
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Originally posted by randhail


That is why they are implementing this dress code. Look at the players before Shaq and Rodman arrived on the scene. They were dressed up on the sidelines. Then came an erosion of the dress code. All Stern is doing is bringing the NBA back to where it was. The players today all wear suits at the draft, so why can't they wear one for team related activities.
You're missing the point. Shaq, Jordan, and Magic would still all be within the code yet they aren't reaching the goal to which Headache and NBC were talking about.

These players are wearing suits, the issue is wearing a necklace outside the suit...you may want to read the whole thread.
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Old 10-19-2005, 02:22 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


THEY ARE NOT SAYING DON'T WEAR BRIGHT PURPLE SUITS.

just like in business, there are people who have style, and those who do not. michael jordan is EXACTLY what the nba wants. he was the epitome of style on and off the court. what you described... i.e. magic johnson, michael jordan and shaq... what they wore is 100% acceptable under this new policy, with the exception of shaq's derby hat.

david stern won't be handing out fines for those who simply can't dress.
THAT'S MY FREAKIN POINT.

Go back to your post where you said the point is not point out individuality. Well these style elements did that, so why can't someone wear a necklace outside their suit and call it style.

That's the whole point of this thread.
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Old 10-19-2005, 02:22 PM   #60
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so i guess the fact that the nhl... they of a 95% white populous... and no one talks about their rules as being racist is completely insignificant to my arguments made earlier...


and funny me, but i thought the point of this thread was "are dress codes racist?"
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