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Old 10-19-2005, 12:32 PM   #31
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Come on with the Mr. T reference, I mean you have taken a look around lately right?
Yes, I have looked around lately. I think it is a caricature to suggest that gold chains are part of African American culture. It smacks of a sort of "protective racism". Well meaning at one level, but just as racist at another.
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Old 10-19-2005, 12:34 PM   #32
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Yes, I have looked around lately. I think it is a caricature to suggest that gold chains are part of African American culture. It smacks of a sort of "protective racism". Well meaning at one level, but just as racist at another.
My point, at least, was not whether gold chains are part of African American culture or not. My point was that it is not our place to make that definition for them.

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Old 10-19-2005, 12:34 PM   #33
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
The issue is that who and why are we making the decision that chains aren't appropriate? Many black people wear chains over their suits. Why is it not appropriate?

I've asked this three times in this thread yet no one can aswer me.
A simple effort to reduce the individuality from team sports.
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Old 10-19-2005, 12:39 PM   #34
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Originally posted by Irvine511




but that's because you are representing the school and you are dealing with children and teenagers. these are professional adult athletes.
just as i represent my place of work, and you represent your place of work, these "professional adult athletes" are representing both the league and the team.
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Old 10-19-2005, 12:40 PM   #35
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Yes, I have looked around lately. I think it is a caricature to suggest that gold chains are part of African American culture. It smacks of a sort of "protective racism". Well meaning at one level, but just as racist at another.
Ah, clever twist. But black pop culture will claim itself that this jewelery is part of it's culture.
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Old 10-19-2005, 12:44 PM   #36
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


A simple effort to reduce the individuality from team sports.
So are we going to ban certain color suits, hair lengths, ties with cartoon charaters on them?

Might as well issue team suits, if this is their concern.
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Old 10-19-2005, 12:47 PM   #37
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


just as i represent my place of work, and you represent your place of work, these "professional adult athletes" are representing both the league and the team.


why are such standards necessary for adults? they all wear uniforms on the court, why is there a need to regulate what they wear to and from games?

i suppose what i'm getting at is less a question of if the team and the league can enforce a dress code -- legally, i believe they can, and i would understand the reasons why they would do so -- however, i first would wonder why they feel the need to do so -- seems to me that they want to make their players a little less "ethnic" for the consumption of suburban white people who have little problem paying $65 for a ticket -- and then where exactly the standards of appropriate dress come from.

you brought up the school analogy, and through the prism of a school, these questions are easily answered. and you're also dealing with minors.

when dealing with a private organization like the NBA, it's quite another thing.

one example: remember the movie "Philadelphia"? during one of the courtroom scenes, they are interviewing one of Tom Hanks' co-workers, and she mentions how the mean white men asked her to wear earrings that were a little less "ethnic" -- meaning, her earrings were too big -- and to wear something a little more "american." and she replied that that they were american, african-american.

i think that fictional scene actually touches on what's going on here.
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Old 10-19-2005, 12:53 PM   #38
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Ah, clever twist. But black pop culture will claim itself that this jewelery is part of it's culture.
If it is black pop culture, is it still racism, or a clash between a culture subset and mainstream culture?
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Old 10-19-2005, 12:56 PM   #39
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


If it is black pop culture, is it still racism, or a clash between a culture subset and mainstream culture?


the two are not the same, but the overlap in meaningful ways.
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Old 10-19-2005, 12:56 PM   #40
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


First of all, attacking the individual is childish.

Secondly you are missing the point. Yes this rule applies to everyone, but how many of the white, asian, and european players were wearing chains?

No one is arguing that having the players dress appropriate is the issue.

The issue is that who and why are we making the decision that chains aren't appropriate? Many black people wear chains over their suits. Why is it not appropriate?

I've asked this three times in this thread yet no one can aswer me.
again... dress code rules in sports are put in place so as no one player stands out, making himself bigger than the team as a whole. a giant medalion with spinning diamonds certainly stands out.

and frankly, you really need to pay a little more attention to basketball and/or youth culture as a whole if you have to ask the question as to how many "white, asian and european players were wearing chains."

these rules are in place wether we're talking about jason williams...


or michael jordan...



and don't start with the whole "attacking the individual is childish" routine...
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Old 10-19-2005, 12:59 PM   #41
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


If it is black pop culture, is it still racism, or a clash between a culture subset and mainstream culture?
Not a clash, a small subset of the overall umbrella of pop culture and mainstream culture. There's a lot of overlapping amongst these groups as well.
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:05 PM   #42
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Originally posted by Irvine511




why are such standards necessary for adults? they all wear uniforms on the court, why is there a need to regulate what they wear to and from games?

i suppose what i'm getting at is less a question of if the team and the league can enforce a dress code -- legally, i believe they can, and i would understand the reasons why they would do so -- however, i first would wonder why they feel the need to do so -- seems to me that they want to make their players a little less "ethnic" for the consumption of suburban white people who have little problem paying $65 for a ticket -- and then where exactly the standards of appropriate dress come from.

you brought up the school analogy, and through the prism of a school, these questions are easily answered. and you're also dealing with minors.

when dealing with a private organization like the NBA, it's quite another thing.

one example: remember the movie "Philadelphia"? during one of the courtroom scenes, they are interviewing one of Tom Hanks' co-workers, and she mentions how the mean white men asked her to wear earrings that were a little less "ethnic" -- meaning, her earrings were too big -- and to wear something a little more "american." and she replied that that they were american, african-american.

i think that fictional scene actually touches on what's going on here.
the other professional sport leagues have similar guidelines, if not flat out rules. is it racist of the yankees to have randy johnson cut his mullet to conform with the team guidelines? and does it hurt that it looks better for corporte sponsors? of course not... i'd be silly to say it doesn't.

but now here, the nba puts forth a dress code, and everyone breaks out the race card... funny, but i find the fact that everyone considers basketball to be a "black sport" a bit racist in it's own right.


try looking at the NFL's rules re: clothing, on the field and off. they're as hardcore as it gets. if you wear the wrong color socks you get fined. when peyton manning wore black cleats in honor of the death of johnny unitas, he was fined by the NFL. dress codes in sports, both on the field and off, are nothing new.
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:10 PM   #43
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[Q]Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


the other professional sport leagues have similar guidelines, if not flat out rules. is it racist of the yankees to have randy johnson cut his mullet to conform with the team guidelines? and does it hurt that it looks better for corporte sponsors? of course not... i'd be silly to say it doesn't.[/Q]

i think that's a good example, and i would have to say that, yes, it is a bit racist to have randy johnson cut his mullet. the mullet could be considered just as "ethnic" as wearing chains on the outside of suits, and for management to force him to conform is exactly the same thing.

what we're getting at here is that there seems to be a dichotomy here -- "acceptable" vs. "ethnic" -- and the notion of what is "acceptable" is created and perpetuated by the arbiters and determiners of "normal" culture, which is white males with money.

i'm really not saying whether or not this is good or bad, but that, yes, these things are clearly racialized.




[Q]... funny, but i find the fact that everyone considers basketball to be a "black sport" a bit racist in it's own right.
[/Q]



i'd agree with you. however, i don't think that's the argument being put forth.
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:15 PM   #44
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[B][Q]Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
i'd agree with you. however, i don't think that's the argument being put forth.
i don't agree... that very much is part of this conversation. the NFL's wardrobe rules aren't headline news... neither are those of certain major league baseball teams. but because basketball is inherently considered to be a "black" sport, both by whites and blacks alike, anytime a rule like this comes up it is debated wether or not it is "racist."

heck... there were people who thought that the suspensions handed down by the NBA to the indiana pacers, including stephen jackson, who rampaged into the crowd at the palace of auburn hills last year and started punching fans was, in fact, racist.

when the united states basketball team lost in the olympics to the white europeans, and the team's play was criticized, that was said to be "racist."
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:21 PM   #45
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again... dress code rules in sports are put in place so as no one player stands out, making himself bigger than the team as a whole. a giant medalion with spinning diamonds certainly stands out.

and frankly, you really need to pay a little more attention to basketball and/or youth culture as a whole if you have to ask the question as to how many "white, asian and european players were wearing chains."


So then I ask again where else do we take it? Make them only wear navy suits? All the same ties?

If we're really that worried about individuality, then let's eliminate tatoos on the court, certain hair lengths, etc.

This has nothing to do with individuality.

And yes I watch a lot of basketball and I know what people are wearing on the sidelines.
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