Can an Oscar be taken back?

[AvsGirl41]

The odd thing is--and I admit, we *are* talking five years so my memory could be wrong--but I do recall Heston making the comment "from my cold, dead hands" while in Denver.
I remember seeing an accompanying photo and everything in the paper the next day!

I haven't seen BFC, but I've read enough stuff on it that my memory could be tainted.

Either way, I suppose this post is pretty pointless.

 

[Dreadsox]

SO lets step aside since everyone is so fired up and focused on the NRA.....Let's talk about the Willie Horton Ad....

[Q]However, the release of Moore's DVD proves otherwise. As we first documented, when "Bowling for Columbine" was released in theaters, it featured a 1988 Bush-Quayle ad called "Revolving Doors" (Real Player video), which criticized a prison furlough program in operation when Michael Dukakis was governor of Massachusetts. Though Horton was furloughed under the program in question, the ad did not explicitly mention him, unlike the more famous ad aired by the National Security Political Action Committee, which had close ties to Bush media advisor Roger Ailes.

But because this part of "Bowling" attempted to show how portrayals of black men are used to promote fear in the public, Moore inserted the caption llie Horton released. Then kills again." the ad, using a text style nearly identical to the ad's original captions. A casual viewer would assume that the text was part of the original ad. The caption is used to support Moore's statement, which runs over the sequence, that "whether you're a psychotic killer or running for president of the United States, the one thing you can always count on is white America's fear of the black man."

However, according to the archived video of the ad linked above, media reports and interviews with a high-level Dukakis official and political experts, the caption did not appear in the original ad. Moreover, it was incorrect -- Horton raped a woman while on furlough, but he did not commit murder.[/Q]


So if we examine this.....it was not a Bush Ad it was an ad from a group like MoveOn.

But what about the text? Saying he killed again????? He raped again....not killed.

Nice addition to the "Bush" ad that was not a Bush ad.

 

[martha]

I thought this thread was about Bowling For Columbine, the film that won the Oscar? If you want to talk about dvd extras, ok, but let's refocus on the film.

 

[Dreadsox]

Its not a DVD EXTRA its in the movie....It was in the original movie, removed on the VHS, and kept in the DVD.....

But if I have to I can post other articles referring to this incident.

Curious though...why do you say DVD Extra when it was in the original movie?

 

[ILuvLarryMullen]

I may be the only person here, but I really like Bowling for Columbine and Michael Moore and was glad when he won the Oscar , and I also like some other people that are not popular on this board...but oh well, I think i'll just keep those to myself. It probably would be to his advantage to get some better fact checkers though.

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]Much more mendaciously, Moore has apparently altered footage of an ad run by the Bush/Quayle campaign in 1988 to implicate Bush in the Willie Horton scandal. Making a point about the use of racial symbols to scare the American public, he shows the Bush/Quayle ad called "Revolving Doors," which attacked Michael Dukakis for a Massachusetts prison furlough program by showing prisoners entering and exiting a prison (the original ad can be seen here [Real Player video]). Superimposed over the footage of the prisoners is the text "Willie Horton released. Then kills again." This caption is displayed as if it is part of the original ad. However, existing footage, media reports and the recollections of several high-level people involved in the campaign indicate that the "Revolving Doors" ad did not explicitly mention Horton, unlike the notorious ad run by the National Security Political Action Committee (which had close ties to Bush media advisor Roger Ailes). In addition, the caption is incorrect -- Horton did not kill anyone while on prison furlough (he raped a woman).[/Q]

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]1. Willie Horton. The first edition of the webpage had a section on falsification of the election ad regarding Willie Horton (the convict, not the baseball star). This was one of the earliest criticisms of Bowling--Ben Fritz caught it back in November, 2002.

To illustrate politicians' (and especially Republican politicians') willingness to play the "race card," Bowling shows what purports to be a television ad run by George Bush, Sr., in his race against Governor Dukakis. For those who weren't around back then -- Massachusetts had a "prison furlough" program where prisoners could be given short releases from the clink. Unfortunately, some of them never came back. Dukakis vetoed legislation which would have forbidden furlough to persons with "life without parole" sentences for murder, and authorities thereafter furloughed a number of murderers. Horton, in prison for a brutal stabbing murder, got a furlough, never returned, and then attacked a couple, assaulting both and raping the woman. His opponents in the presidential race took advantage of the veto.

The ad as shown by Moore begins with a "revolving door" of justice, progresses to a picture of Willie Horton (who is black), and ends with dramatic subtitle: "Willie Horton released. Then kills again."

Fact: Bowling splices together two different election ads, one run by the Bush campaign (featuring a revolving door, and not even mentioning Horton) and another run by an independent expenditure campaign (naming Horton, and showing footage from which it can be seen that he is black). At the end, the ad ala' Moore has the customary note that it was paid for by the Bush-Quayle campaign. Moore intones "whether you're a psychotic killer or running for president of the United States, the one thing you can always count on is white America's fear of the black man." There is nothing to reveal that most of the ad just seen (and all of it that was relevant to Moore's claim) was not the Bush-Quayle ad, which didn't even name Horton.

Fact: Apparently unsatisfied with splicing the ads, Bowling's editors added a subtitle "Willie Horton released. Then kills again."

Fact: Ben Fitz also noted that Bowling's editors didn't bother to research the events before doctoring the ads. Horton's second arrest was not for murder. (The second set of charges were aggravated assault and rape).

[/Q]

 

[martha]

Its not a DVD EXTRA its in the movie....It was in the original movie, removed on the VHS, and kept in the DVD.....

But if I have to I can post other articles referring to this incident.

Curious though...why do you say DVD Extra when it was in the original movie?

Because I spazzed and forgot it was in the movie. Because I saw the movie several years ago and I don't memorize stuff like this.

Why did you buy the movie if you hate it so much?

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

.

 

[nbcrusader]

Why did you buy the movie if you hate it so much?

I've got to give Dread props for his commitment to research matters before he comments.

 

[Dreadsox]

Silence is defening.....

So I guess since it was OK to misrepresent Heston....but not ok to misrepresent Willie Horton?

Oh...if you watch the movie....when Heston says "from my cold dead hands" he is wearing a different shirt and tie from the rest of the speech. So I guess unless he left the stage and changed in the middle of it, it would be hard to have been the speech in Colorado....


I have more if anyone cares to discuss this further....the Willie Horton thing sickens me.

 

[Salome]

Silence is defening.....

indeed, you still haven't reacted to the posts stating that documentaries are hardly ever 'objective'

and I don't believe you have that much respect for Moore that you expect more from him than from others

 

[BVS]

Oh...if you watch the movie....when Heston says "from my cold dead hands" he is wearing a different shirt and tie from the rest of the speech. So I guess unless he left the stage and changed in the middle of it, it would be hard to have been the speech in Colorado....

He's like a rock star with costume changes...

 

[OzAurora]

Good thread and funny because I just re-watched BFC yesterday as a friend left me his copy of it on DVD, I personally like Michael Moore and from the first time I saw one of his 'Awful Truth' shows I realised that a bit of what he was going on about was 'constructed' and that there was room for bias and subjectivity, but maybe it is the fact that I have done an arts degree, but with everything I watch, read and listen too I usually 'read' between the lines and dont take everything as 'gospel', ya got to be intelligent folks!!!!

But what I do like about Mr Moore is that he has raised some very interesting points, the most obvious being 'why does America have so many deaths to guns???' of course he is biased in his approach to reinforcing his opinion, however my point is look beyond this and 'look' at what is being questioned....

and moving on to the nature of documentaries, I think that anyone would be very hard pressed to find a documentary that was not in some way 'constructed' such as nature doco's and when looking at those that focus on events etc, very few of these are objective and free of bias. Having worked and studied as a journalist I can gurantee you that everything that you either watch on TV or read that you believe to be 'true' is in fact wrong- just as U2 said 'everything you know is wrong' the avenues of truth in our society such as news, or documentaries are scripted pieces that are edited, subject to bias and subjectivity and are sometimes constructed.

I will end now with a quote which was one of my favourtie ones when I was studying journalism at a post-graduate levle and I think that it is quite appropriate for here,

"Visual mediums selectively reproduce, rather than faithfully mirror reality" from Schirato & Yell, 'Communication and Cultural Literacy'.

Get used to this folks, reality will never be seen as 'reality', even if it is in fact said to be the truth or the news, I think what you need to be doing is to be asking yourself is 'how much of this do I want to believe and am I going to take the rest of it with a grain of salt?'

 

[Dreadsox]

Awesome post Oz.

Salome....I actually enjoyed the movie...and I read Michael Moore's books. I read many books, written by people who I agree with, but I learn more reading books by people I disagree with.

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]Officials at the Canadian Firearms Centre in Edmonton say filmmaker Michael Moore misrepresented Canada during a scene in his latest documentary.

Moore's Bowling for Columbine examines gun culture in the United States. He makes several comparisions with Canada in the film.

In one scene, Moore buys ammunition at an Ontario Wal-Mart without showing any identification.[/Q]
http://www.cbc.ca/artsCanada/stories/mooreguns141102

 

[AvsGirl41]

Silence is defening.....

So I guess since it was OK to misrepresent Heston....but not ok to misrepresent Willie Horton?

Oh...if you watch the movie....when Heston says "from my cold dead hands" he is wearing a different shirt and tie from the rest of the speech. So I guess unless he left the stage and changed in the middle of it, it would be hard to have been the speech in Colorado....

Doesn't Heston say it at pretty much every NRA appearence?

I still remember him saying it here, clothing changes aside--Moore might have spliced in a different clip with the same quote.

But emotions were running so high at that time, *especially* with the NRA convention, that I can't even argue the point. I have no feelings for BFC one way or another.

 

[Dreadsox]

Cold dead hands speech was allegedly a year later....

Let the pics speak for themselves.....


I would like to correct a comment I made yesterday...

The Willie Horton text was corrected to Rape fromt he original to DVD.

 

[Salome]

Salome....I actually enjoyed the movie...and I read Michael Moore's books. I read many books, written by people who I agree with, but I learn more reading books by people I disagree with.

I haven't watched this movie, I read some of Moore's stuff that is posted here and that's it

my interest in Moore is limmited, because he makes a lot of noise but fails to achieve much


I just don't really get the intention of this thread
are you planning on researching the truth ratio of every documentary that won an oscar?

 

[Dreadsox]

I think he took to many "liberties" to have his film called a documentary. When you ad text into a film trying to pass it off as the original ads, isn't that lying? When you splice together film clips trying to portray the person as having said something that he did not at that particular time and place, isn't that lying? When you film yourself buying ammo in Canada, when according to the Canadien governement, he could not have, isn' that lying?

How can it be a documentary , when he is lying? Another lie would be purchasing an account with the bamnk and getting a gun. I am not denying the bank allowed you to get a free gun, but it did not happen the way he portrayed it. There was a manditory waiting period while the background check was conducted, and the actual gun had to be picked up at a gun store, not at the bank.

So looking at the premise of his movie.....how is it a documentary when he is showing made up gun purchases, made up ammunition purchases ect.

 

[Salome]

I don't think even Moore would not acknowledge that he chose to portrait realtity to serve his means
(I haven't seen "Bowling ..." but even I am 99% sure that he did)

you go from calling something "a lie" to calling it "did not happen the way he portayed it" in 2 following sentences
now, the truth is probably somewhere in between

but I still agree with those who say that most if not all documentaries work like that
so I'm merely interested in why you think that "Bowling ..." is a more deceiptful representation of reality than other documentaries

 

[Angela Harlem]

What is lying Dreadsox?
Lying is making a completely false representation by dubbing or splicing to make say a Heston pep cry something it never was. Not stretching the truth or exagerating to make a point.
Lying is saying you can buy ammunition in Canada but due to not being able to prove it, you film yourself buying it in OneHorseTown USA and pass it off as Canada. Screw what the govt says. You can either buy it or you can't. He did.
A lie would be saying you get a gun when you open an account with a certain bank when clearly you cannot. He got a gun. He stretched the truth again, but it isn't a lie.

How is it entirely based on lies when America has a serious gun problem which the rest of the world seems to see, but not the US? Moore has never hidden the fact he is dramatic opportunist. I'd call his documentary entirely tongue in cheek, but not a lie. The whole point of what he produced from the editing floor is to get everyone to question why 11,000+ Americans die every year from firearms offences. Not to get to questioning Moore's creative licence on the term 'documentary'. You are meant to go a bit further than this Dread, and ask why. The issues. Not Moore. You keep focusing on the man himself rather than the very questionable issues he raised. Seperate him from the movie/documentary. It isn't about Moore.

 

[Dreadsox]

If he ads TEXT to campaign ads, that was not there, that had innacurate facts, and attributes it to the Candidate and not the PAC that put it out, then it is a lie. It is certainly not the truth.

If he shows on screen buying ammunition in Canada in a manner that the Canadian governement says is not the way it is done, it is a lie.

If he shows himself walking out of the door of a bank implying that the bank handed it to him right then and there on the day he opened his account, when in reality he had the same waiting period as everyone else, and that he had to get the gun from a licensed dealer that is a lie.

If he shows Heston wearing two different suits, but implys the speech was made in the face of Columbine, when in reality part of the speech was made almost a year later, that is a lie.

If he shows himslef pleading with Heston, as Heston is walking away, and there is no camera that could have shown him pleading with Heston, he clearly is acting, because the shot was made after the fact.

He was right, we are living in a "Fictitious World"

Salome, I am certain this beat other documentaries that were more deserving of the title.

 

[iacrobat]

How can it be a documentary , when he is lying? Another lie would be purchasing an account with the bamnk and getting a gun. I am not denying the bank allowed you to get a free gun, but it did not happen the way he portrayed it. There was a manditory waiting period while the background check was conducted, and the actual gun had to be picked up at a gun store, not at the bank.

Have you checked his website Dread? He has a much longer clip of that scene on his website...it appears the bank does give him the gun then and there after the background check.

I was curious too about the (in)accuracies and he has responded to accusations on his website.

 

[Scarletwine]

This is just an excuse for Dread to show his dislike of Moore.

"I was curious too about the (in)accuracies and he has responded to accusations on his website."

 

[nbcrusader]

Shoot the messenger....

 

[Angela Harlem]

Depending on one's perspective, would this be Dread or Moore?

 

[Dreadsox]

I do not like him. I will admit it. I am also intelligent enough to understand that he does make good points and not all of them are invalid.

I would question if some people could say the same about people they disagree with.

And Angela...shoot away!

I have researched his explinations for things and I find he does a good job at skirting the issues. I stand by my statement that the gun was not given out by the bank. It was staged in my opinion as was his talking to Mr. Heston as he walked away.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

please... this is merely a wardrobe malfunction

 

[Dreadsox]

LOL....no really he said it there....