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Old 04-25-2004, 11:08 AM   #16
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Do you think there might be a bit of a difference in reading the text of a speech (full or not) and hearing it spoken?
I dont think Michael Moore deserves a standing ovation for BFC, but Charlton Heston is an arse.
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Old 04-25-2004, 11:09 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem

I dont think Michael Moore deserves a standing ovation for BFC, but Charlton Heston is an arse.
Well said...
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Old 04-25-2004, 11:38 AM   #18
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The speech was edited....and pieced together cutting out vast portions of the text. He also failed to acknowledge that the NRA cancelled most activities associated with their convention because of columbine.

[Q]NRA curtails convention
But Webb pushes group to cancel all functions

By Kevin Flynn
Denver Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------







The National Rifle Association on Wednesday severely curtailed its national convention in Denver next week out of "profound sympathy and respect" for victims of the Columbine High School shooting.

But Denver Mayor Wellington Webb wants the group to cancel its meeting entirely and urged citizens to wage a call-in campaign.

"Everyday people can make a difference," Webb said. "They can call the NRA. Get the 800 number off the billboards and call them and tell them not to come to Denver."

Coincidentally, an NRA billboard along West Colfax Avenue advertising its convention was taken down Wednesday.

Webb offered to refund all deposits and other costs the NRA incurred in renting the convention center, if the group would cancel its meeting outright.

In a letter to NRA members Wednesday, President Charlton Heston and the group's executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre, said all seminars, workshops, luncheons, exhibits by gun makers and other vendors, and festivities are canceled.

All that's left is a members' reception with Rep. J.C. Watts, R-Okla., and the annual meeting, set for 10 a.m. May 1 in the Colorado Convention Center.

Under its bylaws and New York state law, the NRA must hold an annual meeting.
[/Q]
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Old 04-25-2004, 11:40 AM   #19
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[Q]Heston's Denver speech as edited by Moore







Weeping children outside Columbine, explaining how near they had come to death and how their friends had just been murdered before their eyes;



Cut to Charleton Heston holding a musket over his head and happily proclaiming "I have only five words for you: 'from my cold, dead, hands'" to a cheering NRA crowd.

Cut to billboard advertising the meeting, while Moore in voiceover intones: "Just ten days after the Columbine killings, despite the pleas of a community in mourning, Charleton Heston came to Denver and held a large pro-gun rally for the National Rifle Association." [But for this break, the viewer would spot that two different speeches are being merged, since Heston has lavender shirt and tie in the above speech, and white shirt and red tie in the one below.]

Heston (supposedly) continues speech...

"Good Morning. Thank you all for coming, and thank you for supporting your organization. I also want to applaud your courage in coming here today." [Footage of protest outside] "I have a message from the Mayor, Mr. Wellington Webb, the Mayor of Denver. [picture of Webb, then back to Heston] He sent me this, and said 'don't come here. We don't want you here.' I said to the Mayor this is our country, as Americans we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land. [cut to crowd cheering, then back to Heston] Don't come here? We're already here." [/Q]

actual speech:

[Q]Charlton Heston's Speech to the NRA

04 May, 1999

By Charlton Heston
CNS Information Services

(Editor's Note: The following remarks by NRA President Charlton Heston were transcribed by CNS from a RealVideo presentation of his speech before the NRA's national meeting in Denver, Colorado May 1.)

Thank you. Thank you very much. Good morning. I am very happy to welcome you to this abbreviated annual gathering of the National Rifle Association. Thank you all for coming and thank you for supporting your organization.

I also want to applaud your courage in coming here today. Or course, you have a right to be here. As you know, we've cancelled the festivities, the fellowship we normally enjoy at our annual gatherings. This decision has perplexed a few and inconvenienced thousands. As your president, I apologize for that.

But it's fitting and proper that we should do this. Because NRA members are, above all, Americans. That means that whatever our differences, we are respectful of one another and we stand united, especially in adversity.

I have a message from the mayor, Mr. Wellington Webb, the mayor of Denver. He sent me this and said don't come here, we don't want you here. I said to the mayor, well, my reply to the mayor is, I volunteered for the war they wanted me to attend when I was 18 years old. Since then, I've run small errands for my country, from Nigeria to Vietnam. I know many of you here in this room could say the same thing. But the mayor said don't come.

I'm sorry for that. I'm sorry for the newspaper ads saying the same thing, don't come here. This is our country. As Americans, we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land.

They say we'll create a media distraction, but we were preceded here by hundreds of intrusive news crews. They say we'll create political distraction, but it's not been the NRA pressing for political advantage, calling press conferences to propose vast packages of new legislation.

Still they say don't come here. I guess what saddens me the most is how that suggests complicity. It implies that you and I and 80 million honest gun owners are somehow to blame, that we don't care. We don't care as much as they do, or that we don't deserve to be as shocked and horrified as every other soul in America mourning for the people of Littleton.

Don't come here. That's offensive. It's also absurd because we live here. There are thousands of NRA members in Denver, and tens upon tens of thousands in the state of Colorado.

NRA members labor in Denver's factories, they populate Denver's faculties, run Denver corporations, play on Colorado sports teams, work in media across the Front Range, parent and teach and coach Denver's children, attend Denver's churches and proudly represent Denver in uniform on the world's oceans and in the skies over Kosovo at this very moment.

NRA members are in city hall, Fort Carson, NORAD, the Air Force Academy and the Olympic Training Center. And yes, NRA members are surly among the police and fire and SWAT team heroes who risked their lives to rescue the students at Columbine.

Don't come here? We're already here. This community is our home. Every community in America is our home. We are a 128-year-old fixture of mainstream America. The Second Amendment ethic of lawful, responsible firearm ownership spans the broadest cross section of American life imaginable.

So, we have the same right as all other citizens to be here. To help shoulder the grief and share our sorrow and to offer our respectful, reassured voice to the national discourse that has erupted around this tragedy.

One more thing. Our words and our behavior will be scrutinized more than ever this morning. Those who are hostile towards us will lie in wait to seize on a soundbite out of context, ever searching for an embarrassing moment to ridicule us. So, let us be mindful. The eyes of the nation are upon us today.

[/Q]
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Old 04-25-2004, 11:48 AM   #20
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I don't think I've ever seen a documentary that was 'objective.'
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Old 04-25-2004, 12:05 PM   #21
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How the real speech isn't offensive is beyond me.

But gosh darn it, every American has the right to bear arms!

Quote:
The Second Amendment ethic of lawful, responsible firearm ownership spans the broadest cross section of American life imaginable.
There it is, in black and white.

Jesus Christ. Guns.

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Old 04-25-2004, 12:21 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by meegannie
I don't think I've ever seen a documentary that was 'objective.'
I agree that we wouldn't even see 3 nominations
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Old 04-25-2004, 01:51 PM   #23
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so it's gone from blame mr. moore to eh, so what, no documentary is reeeeally 100% objective. how very moore-ish of you.

i, for one, don't like the NRA. the ammendmant was written hundreds of years ago and needs to be adjusted to fit today's world. i don't hunt and don't see the point of hunting, unless it's for your own survival. to me, sport is competition. sitting in a tree waiting for bambi to run by so you can pump him full of buckshot isn't competition. give bambi an AK, and then we've got ourselfs a match. guns 'cause nothing but pain. that being said, it is every american's right to own a gun if they chose to do so, and if they feel it is important to own a gun to protect their family, then so be it. i for one find nothing offensive about heston's actuall speach, where as the speach as edited by mr. moore is extremely offensive. moore is notorious for doing just that... twisting words and images to fit his own idea, and then pawning it off as truth. then, when he gets called on it, he mearly shurgs it off as "i'm just an entertainer." he's quite simply one of the biggest piles of dung in the entertainment world today, and upon reading his latest book, i'd much rather use it for toilet paper than keep it around on my shelf.
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Old 04-25-2004, 01:58 PM   #24
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No, it won't and shouldn't be taken back. The nature of "documentary" is part of a long-running debate that is as old as filmmaking itself. The argument that "Bowling for Columbine" is more "fiction than fact" is irrelevant. You can make this argument all the way from news reporting to National Geographic specials. The sheer fact that one has to make shot edits and compress a time span into a watchable span of time--i.e., taking 3 days (36 hours) and compressing it down to a 2 hour film--makes all "documentaries" subject to bias and open to questioning.

But, again, this has been a debate as old as filmmaking itself, and to somehow make such a fuss over Michael Moore is more self-serving politics than any actual concern over realism in documentaries.

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Old 04-25-2004, 02:13 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
to somehow make such a fuss over Michael Moore is more self-serving politics than any actual concern over realism in documentaries.
then i suppose it would be fitting seeing as mr. moore's documentaries do nothing to serve his own political ideals with no actual concern over realism.
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Old 04-25-2004, 02:46 PM   #26
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Dread,


Honestly, I read your post of the ENTIRE 'actual' speech.


Filmmakers always edit. A film can only be so long.

I agree there are some inaccuracies in BFC.

It would have been a better film without giving crumbs to detractors to seize upon.


Back to the actual speech.


In context the words are offensive and insensitive and are not really soften by the entirety.
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Old 04-25-2004, 02:49 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
then i suppose it would be fitting seeing as mr. moore's documentaries do nothing to serve his own political ideals with no actual concern over realism.
Just as much a jolly good time as watching FOX News' melodramatic pieces we call "war coverage."

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Old 04-25-2004, 04:35 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
so it's gone from blame mr. moore to eh, so what, no documentary is reeeeally 100% objective. how very moore-ish of you.
ah, let's face it
even in the netherlands there is a quite obvious bias at times in the way the news is presented

unless you can point out that Moore really outdid the common norm on this one I don't see the point of it


I have stated over a dozen times that I think Moore hurts himself by the way he chooses to present his views because he achieves animosity instead of dialogue
but this discussion is even more over the top than Moore's work
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Old 04-25-2004, 05:32 PM   #29
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So I read through this thread. I skimmed Heston's speeches because he makes my skin fucking crawl.

Is it fiction that thousands and thousands of people have been killed by guns every year? Is it fiction that children have access to guns? Is it fiction that the NRA promotes the use of guns?

Write the letter to the Academy, and quote Charleton Heston. Make sure to include statistics that prove that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Using the guns made available by the NRA and the legislators in its pocket.
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Old 04-25-2004, 08:39 PM   #30
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I didn't say the speech didn't bother me....I am saying Mr. Moore took great liberties with the speech.

Another example would be the Willie Horton Ad. Mr. Moore added to the add......words that were not there and they were words that were innacurate.

So rather than be distracted by Mr. Heston....explain why Mr. Moore added text to the Willie Horton Ad.
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