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Old 12-06-2004, 06:36 AM   #106
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It may be pointless for us to continue this discussion with a kid who has had made up his mind without the benefit of very much experience in life. He's believing what he's been told to believe, and he'll do that until he learns otherwise. Young straight men tend to feel very threatened by gay men, so I think I'm going to let Macfistowannbe grow up a little and find out a little about how the world functions.




And I can base my assessment of an internet stranger on "reading between the lines" of his posts.
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Old 12-06-2004, 07:00 AM   #107
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It is much easier to point the finger at a gay couple and say that they are sinning because there is something tangible to point at.

It is less easy to point the finger at the people purchasing golf memberships worth $100,000-$200,000 dollars.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, I am trying to think of a book that turned me into something else because I read it.

The Anne Rice stories I read did not turn me into a lover of bondage therefore why would I want to destroy literature?
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Old 12-06-2004, 07:11 AM   #108
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Originally posted by verte76
So the word "homosexuality" dates from the nineteenth century. I knew it wasn't a very old word. My basic feeling on the matter is that if two people love each other that much, then so what about their gender. Two of my best friends are a gay couple so I think I know what I'm talking about. For that reason this stuff is a little personal for me, I can be a bit touchy about the matter.

bravo! this is a very important point. the word "gay" really comes from the trial of Oscar Wilde, who was convicted of sodomy, then illegal in 19th century Britain. OW gave a face and name to this group of men who socialized mostly with other men, and probably did indeed fall in love and have sex with each other. "gay" is a modern word, and is really only about a hundred years old or so. the sad thing is that now that this kind of love had a name -- remember, it was the love that dare not speak it's name -- it became much, much easier for the church and for society to discriminate against something that has been around forever.

(on a side note, anyone can read the transcript of OW's trial -- my God, that man had a way with words, it's absolutely side-splittingly funny ... until he's convicted, that is)

however, homosexuality has existed for ever. in many, many cultures, especially those where women are kept under lock and key for religious reasons, homosexual sex between men is quite common.
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:26 AM   #109
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Originally posted by martha
It may be pointless for us to continue this discussion with a kid who has had made up his mind without the benefit of very much experience in life. He's believing what he's been told to believe, and he'll do that until he learns otherwise. Young straight men tend to feel very threatened by gay men, so I think I'm going to let Macfistowannbe grow up a little and find out a little about how the world functions.


And I can base my assessment of an internet stranger on "reading between the lines" of his posts.
I'm going to ignore anything personally addressed at me in your post, to plainly say, no it isn't pointless to continue a discussion. It has been said that you don't know your own views until you hear the views of the opposing side. Do I believe everything I'm told, no I do not. For example, I don't know for sure whether or not people are "born gay." I don't know if anyone can prove it either way. Threatened? No. Let me say this much. If I saw two men holding hands, I wouldn't cut in on them. I would mind my own business. Doesn't that sound intolerant of me?
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:29 AM   #110
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I would like stats on this thaat demonstrate what you are sying is accurate. That sounds like a blanket statement.
Well... the only people I hear saying that nobody is morally responsible for anything just so happen to be liberals.
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:35 AM   #111
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Well... the only people I hear saying that nobody is morally responsible for anything just so happen to be liberals.
WTF? Good stance for an argument...
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:35 AM   #112
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Well... the only people I hear saying that nobody is morally responsible for anything just so happen to be liberals.
Still waiting to see some statistical evidence of the accuracy of your statements.

As a conservative, I feel it important to the argument.
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:39 AM   #113
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Okay, perhaps you haven't heard enough from me. No, I can't say that people are born gay, and I can't say that they're not. I'm not a hardcore conservative, I just find the conservative stance on issues appealing and representing of my leanings more often than not. I take a look at what both sides say, and I can't see how either one can be so absolute about something. If you were hoping for a stab in the face, I'm sorry, but you're not going to get one from me.

Okay, so I observe that everyone I hear claims that nobody is responsible for their own doings is a liberal. That's an observation, not necesarily something I got from a publication.
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Old 12-06-2004, 11:07 AM   #114
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Okay, perhaps you haven't heard enough from me. No, I can't say that people are born gay, and I can't say that they're not. I'm not a hardcore conservative, I just find the conservative stance on issues appealing and representing of my leanings more often than not. I take a look at what both sides say, and I can't see how either one can be so absolute about something. If you were hoping for a stab in the face, I'm sorry, but you're not going to get one from me.
No one's looking for a stab, people are looking for facts to back up, when statements such as yours are made.

You cannot make a statement such as this;
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The point I was making to anitram was that a fair share of the people who insist that homosexuality is not a content of character also believe that nobody has control over their own moral behavior.
and think you are going to get away with it, without showing some evidence. This is a fairly offensive blanket statement, like those often made by you. Avoiding the question won't make it go away.
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Old 12-06-2004, 11:09 AM   #115
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So nobody here is allowed to make any observations?
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Old 12-06-2004, 11:20 AM   #116
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
So nobody here is allowed to make any observations?
Not gross blanket generalizations. Would you find something such as "Most conservative Christians really voted based on pseudo-morals in the last election", to be appropriate? I mean one could call it an "observation" if it makes you feel better. Make observations all you want but even your "observation" wasn't even close.
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Old 12-06-2004, 11:34 AM   #117
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The reason I asked my questions is some of the most moral people I know happen to be gay.

Some of the most immoral people I know happen to be straight.

The most conservative person I know happens to be gay.

Yet, knowing all these things, I would not make a blanket statement about any one group of people.
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Old 12-06-2004, 12:16 PM   #118
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Not gross blanket generalizations. Would you find something such as "Most conservative Christians really voted based on pseudo-morals in the last election", to be appropriate? I mean one could call it an "observation" if it makes you feel better. Make observations all you want but even your "observation" wasn't even close.
It really depends on your definition of pseudo morals. A lot of the time, we disagree with what is moral and what isn't. Conservatives might consider abortion and gay marriage moral issues, whereas liberals take a look at tax cuts, the environment, and such to justify their arguments. Is Bush the most moral man on earth? I doubt it, he's far from a perfect human being, but those who share his set of ideals chose him rather than Kerry. Yes, there's plenty of immoral monsters on both sides of the fence. I wouldn't consider Kerry one of them.

I do have to ask you about the last sentence you said. Have you ever heard a conservative say that they aren't responsible for their own actions? If you have, I won't deny it. I'm not limiting any discussion on what people find in the New York Times.
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Old 12-06-2004, 12:46 PM   #119
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So has anyone here read a book that caused them to do something they did not wish to do in the first place?

Still thinking about Anne Rice, and the fact that I read her version of Sleeping Beauty, and I am not eager to do or try almost anything from that book. Should we ban it though? I mean it contains all kinds of group sex and things like spanking. Seriously, this could catch on, and we might have a total revolution on our hands.
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Old 12-06-2004, 02:02 PM   #120
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So has anyone here read a book that caused them to do something they did not wish to do in the first place?
Nope. Not me at least.
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