call to ban and bury "gay" books

[verte76]

I think the comparison to Hitler is extreme, too, but it does show how much this guy is pissing the locals off. If they had a demonstration against this guy I'd definitely go.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Not everyone agrees that homosexuality is related to character at all, and many believe it is something inborn, completely separate from "character."

Not everyone agrees that they are morally responsible for anything they do either.

 

[Dreadsox]

Not everyone agrees that they are morally responsible for anything they do either.

Without putting words into your mouth, I have a sincere question....

Are you saying that gay/lesbians are morally irresponsible?

 

[Irvine511]

If you take Martin Luther King into account, he said that he dreamed of living in a nation where his children wouldn't be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. Homosexuality is not a skin color, but a content of character.

MLK had as much choice to be black as Oscar Wilde had to be gay.

gay people falling in love, having sex, and getting married harms aboslutely no one. it's what Jesus would have wanted.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

gay people falling in love, having sex, and getting married harms aboslutely no one. it's what Jesus would have wanted.

I can't guarantee you on that one.

 

[Irvine511]

I can't guarantee you on that one.

Jesus had nothing to say about homosexuality. he had plenty to say about loving your neighbor as yourself.

two gay men and two gay women are as capable of loving each other in as deep and profound and loving and (dare i say) Godly a manner as any straight couple out there.

i've seen it. it's very real. and i'd have to think Jesus would know love when he sees it.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Jesus had nothing to say about homosexuality. he had plenty to say about loving your neighbor as yourself.

Not everything said by Jesus was recorded, but you're right about loving the neighbor as yourself. I don't know everything about Jesus and how he feels about it, I just know he loves all people. I do wonder why God would choose Paul as one of his prophets if homosexuality was not a sin (Paul spoke out against it, could've been a very human doctorine, rather than Godly, I don't know for sure).

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Without putting words into your mouth, I have a sincere question....

Are you saying that gay/lesbians are morally irresponsible?

The point I was making to anitram was that a fair share of the people who insist that homosexuality is not a content of character also believe that nobody has control over their own moral behavior.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I believe people can control whether or not they act on their feelings, but I don't believe that people can control having the feelings themselves.

And personally, I would hope that a loving, consenting couple, regardless of whether they're straight, gay, or whatever else, would not have to be afraid to act on their love for each other. I also personally believe that God has no problem with homosexuality.

Angela

 

[Dreadsox]

The point I was making to anitram was that a fair share of the people who insist that homosexuality is not a content of character also believe that nobody has control over their own moral behavior.

I would like stats on this thaat demonstrate what you are sying is accurate. That sounds like a blanket statement.

 

[pax]

Yes, I definitely would, too. I have no problem with homosexuality or homosexual relationships, but I sure as hell believe that mentally competent adults are responsible for what they do.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Say what, we are all able to control our "moral character" but homosexuality is more an issue of sexual preference than anything else, now if you wanted to talk about harmful relationships within the context of homosexuality then I may be inclined to go along but sexuality in itself is inconcequential.

 

[pwmartin]

Actually, while it may be argued that Jesus never explicity mentions homosexuality (which, as a word didn't exist until the 19th century), he does, I believe say something germaine to the topic...a sentence which is rarely quoted by either "side" in this ongoing debate.

Mark 10:2-9.

It is actually a discussion about divorce (Jesus is asked in a trick question by the Pharisees) as to whether it is lawful? As a part of his response, Jesus quotes Genesis: "But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.'"

Irvine511, you are right: Jesus concentrates a lot more on the sins of wealth than he does on the sins of sexuality. And when he talks about marriage, etc, it is usually about divorce. I think his words should make all of us Christians look more closely at our own sins.

This homosexuality question is such a difficult topic to discuss because it has (unfortunately) become in our overly-sexualized culture a central part of people's identity.

 

[verte76]

So the word "homosexuality" dates from the nineteenth century. I knew it wasn't a very old word. My basic feeling on the matter is that if two people love each other that much, then so what about their gender. Two of my best friends are a gay couple so I think I know what I'm talking about. For that reason this stuff is a little personal for me, I can be a bit touchy about the matter.

 

[BVS]

Actually, while it may be argued that Jesus never explicity mentions homosexuality (which, as a word didn't exist until the 19th century), he does, I believe say something germaine to the topic...a sentence which is rarely quoted by either "side" in this ongoing debate.

Mark 10:2-9.

It is actually a discussion about divorce (Jesus is asked in a trick question by the Pharisees) as to whether it is lawful? As a part of his response, Jesus quotes Genesis: "But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.'"

Oh so now we're going to read between the lines again. Sorry but I don't believe in the defining of sins by reading between the lines. No other sin has ever been defined this way, and just because of some people's uncomfort, hatred, or whatever it may be I'm not going to start now.

 

[martha]

It may be pointless for us to continue this discussion with a kid who has had made up his mind without the benefit of very much experience in life. He's believing what he's been told to believe, and he'll do that until he learns otherwise. Young straight men tend to feel very threatened by gay men, so I think I'm going to let Macfistowannbe grow up a little and find out a little about how the world functions.




And I can base my assessment of an internet stranger on "reading between the lines" of his posts.

 

[Dreadsox]

It is much easier to point the finger at a gay couple and say that they are sinning because there is something tangible to point at.

It is less easy to point the finger at the people purchasing golf memberships worth $100,000-$200,000 dollars.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, I am trying to think of a book that turned me into something else because I read it.

The Anne Rice stories I read did not turn me into a lover of bondage therefore why would I want to destroy literature?

 

[Irvine511]

So the word "homosexuality" dates from the nineteenth century. I knew it wasn't a very old word. My basic feeling on the matter is that if two people love each other that much, then so what about their gender. Two of my best friends are a gay couple so I think I know what I'm talking about. For that reason this stuff is a little personal for me, I can be a bit touchy about the matter.

bravo! this is a very important point. the word "gay" really comes from the trial of Oscar Wilde, who was convicted of sodomy, then illegal in 19th century Britain. OW gave a face and name to this group of men who socialized mostly with other men, and probably did indeed fall in love and have sex with each other. "gay" is a modern word, and is really only about a hundred years old or so. the sad thing is that now that this kind of love had a name -- remember, it was the love that dare not speak it's name -- it became much, much easier for the church and for society to discriminate against something that has been around forever.

(on a side note, anyone can read the transcript of OW's trial -- my God, that man had a way with words, it's absolutely side-splittingly funny ... until he's convicted, that is)

however, homosexuality has existed for ever. in many, many cultures, especially those where women are kept under lock and key for religious reasons, homosexual sex between men is quite common.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

It may be pointless for us to continue this discussion with a kid who has had made up his mind without the benefit of very much experience in life. He's believing what he's been told to believe, and he'll do that until he learns otherwise. Young straight men tend to feel very threatened by gay men, so I think I'm going to let Macfistowannbe grow up a little and find out a little about how the world functions.


And I can base my assessment of an internet stranger on "reading between the lines" of his posts.

I'm going to ignore anything personally addressed at me in your post, to plainly say, no it isn't pointless to continue a discussion. It has been said that you don't know your own views until you hear the views of the opposing side. Do I believe everything I'm told, no I do not. For example, I don't know for sure whether or not people are "born gay." I don't know if anyone can prove it either way. Threatened? No. Let me say this much. If I saw two men holding hands, I wouldn't cut in on them. I would mind my own business. Doesn't that sound intolerant of me?

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I would like stats on this thaat demonstrate what you are sying is accurate. That sounds like a blanket statement.

Well... the only people I hear saying that nobody is morally responsible for anything just so happen to be liberals.

 

[BVS]

Well... the only people I hear saying that nobody is morally responsible for anything just so happen to be liberals.

WTF? Good stance for an argument...

 

[Dreadsox]

Well... the only people I hear saying that nobody is morally responsible for anything just so happen to be liberals.

Still waiting to see some statistical evidence of the accuracy of your statements.

As a conservative, I feel it important to the argument.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Okay, perhaps you haven't heard enough from me. No, I can't say that people are born gay, and I can't say that they're not. I'm not a hardcore conservative, I just find the conservative stance on issues appealing and representing of my leanings more often than not. I take a look at what both sides say, and I can't see how either one can be so absolute about something. If you were hoping for a stab in the face, I'm sorry, but you're not going to get one from me.

Okay, so I observe that everyone I hear claims that nobody is responsible for their own doings is a liberal. That's an observation, not necesarily something I got from a publication.

 

[BVS]

Okay, perhaps you haven't heard enough from me. No, I can't say that people are born gay, and I can't say that they're not. I'm not a hardcore conservative, I just find the conservative stance on issues appealing and representing of my leanings more often than not. I take a look at what both sides say, and I can't see how either one can be so absolute about something. If you were hoping for a stab in the face, I'm sorry, but you're not going to get one from me.

No one's looking for a stab, people are looking for facts to back up, when statements such as yours are made.

You cannot make a statement such as this;

The point I was making to anitram was that a fair share of the people who insist that homosexuality is not a content of character also believe that nobody has control over their own moral behavior.

and think you are going to get away with it, without showing some evidence. This is a fairly offensive blanket statement, like those often made by you. Avoiding the question won't make it go away.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

So nobody here is allowed to make any observations?

 

[BVS]

So nobody here is allowed to make any observations?

Not gross blanket generalizations. Would you find something such as "Most conservative Christians really voted based on pseudo-morals in the last election", to be appropriate? I mean one could call it an "observation" if it makes you feel better. Make observations all you want but even your "observation" wasn't even close.

 

[Dreadsox]

The reason I asked my questions is some of the most moral people I know happen to be gay.

Some of the most immoral people I know happen to be straight.

The most conservative person I know happens to be gay.

Yet, knowing all these things, I would not make a blanket statement about any one group of people.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Not gross blanket generalizations. Would you find something such as "Most conservative Christians really voted based on pseudo-morals in the last election", to be appropriate? I mean one could call it an "observation" if it makes you feel better. Make observations all you want but even your "observation" wasn't even close.

It really depends on your definition of pseudo morals. A lot of the time, we disagree with what is moral and what isn't. Conservatives might consider abortion and gay marriage moral issues, whereas liberals take a look at tax cuts, the environment, and such to justify their arguments. Is Bush the most moral man on earth? I doubt it, he's far from a perfect human being, but those who share his set of ideals chose him rather than Kerry. Yes, there's plenty of immoral monsters on both sides of the fence. I wouldn't consider Kerry one of them.

I do have to ask you about the last sentence you said. Have you ever heard a conservative say that they aren't responsible for their own actions? If you have, I won't deny it. I'm not limiting any discussion on what people find in the New York Times.

 

[Dreadsox]

So has anyone here read a book that caused them to do something they did not wish to do in the first place?

Still thinking about Anne Rice, and the fact that I read her version of Sleeping Beauty, and I am not eager to do or try almost anything from that book. Should we ban it though? I mean it contains all kinds of group sex and things like spanking. Seriously, this could catch on, and we might have a total revolution on our hands.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

So has anyone here read a book that caused them to do something they did not wish to do in the first place?

Nope. Not me at least.