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Old 08-22-2008, 04:28 PM   #91
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Well, a child's ability to actually make into the world is being threatened by politics and ideology too, so I'd say in the end the two balance each other out.

When your daughter is denied medical treatment because the doctor finds it objectionable, you can tell her how good you feel about it.

People who think this way forget that shit like this will eventually affect them.
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Old 08-22-2008, 05:13 PM   #92
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When your daughter is denied medical treatment because the doctor finds it objectionable, you can tell her how good you feel about it.
Your moral high ground sinks when you're talking about murdering defenseless babies in the womb, Martha.
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Old 08-22-2008, 06:02 PM   #93
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People who think this way forget that shit like this will eventually affect them.
People who fervently support abortion on demand forget to put themselves in the baby's position.
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Old 08-22-2008, 06:07 PM   #94
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Jesus. If this affected men, there would be outrage and much fist-banging on desks.

I wonder if those women who think that voting for McCain "sends a message" really understand the message that they'll be sending.
How do you account for the fact that the % of women who are of the view that abortion should not be available is HIGHER than the % of men?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortio....2C_and_region


Have you ever considered that these statistics blow a massive hole in your tired, worn, cliched, and insulting argument that those who support limits on abortion only do so because they want to oppress women?
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Old 08-22-2008, 06:31 PM   #95
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Have you ever considered that these statistics blow a massive hole in your tired, worn, cliched, and insulting argument that those who support limits on abortion only do so because they want to oppress women?


i, for one, am shocked that the same people who want to retain the ability to deny certain forms of contraception also demand the ability to deny access to abortion on demand.

after all, i've only ever believed that the pro-life movement was a totally sincere effort to reduce the incidence of abortions by any means necessary because of the totally sincere and heartfelt convictions about the metaphysical status of the fetus.

situations like this really do support the sneaking suspicion that the "pro-life" movement is little more than a whole set of reactionary attitudes about women's sexuality and gender roles.

you'd think that those so aghast at abortion and who sob over the little babies -- who, btw, get "murdered" naturally in the womb by, well, i guess god himself -- would be tripping all over themselves to make birth control federally funded.
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Old 08-22-2008, 06:40 PM   #96
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I agree that contraception should be federally funded.
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Old 08-22-2008, 06:42 PM   #97
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i, for one, am shocked that the same people who want to retain the ability to deny certain forms of contraception also demand the ability to deny access to abortion on demand.
In the situation we're discussing, the doctors were happy to offer referrals to other doctors. So this is a bit of a non sequitor.

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situations like this...
Like what? Abortions? Or IVF for lesbians?

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really do support the sneaking suspicion that the "pro-life" movement is little more than a whole set of reactionary attitudes about women's sexuality and gender roles.
How on earth would you get that from this thread?

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you'd think that those so aghast at abortion and who sob over the little babies -- who, btw, get "murdered" naturally in the womb by, well, i guess god himself...
As someone who is currently mourning the loss of a close friend's child in the womb due to (among other reasons) her diabetes, I find this patently offensive -- as if God is the only force in the universe. If you'd like to have a discussion about the role of God, natural law, and good and evil in the universe, by all means. This is not the time or the place, and adding such a charge to sexism, shows your own naivete and inability to understand any perspective but your own.
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Old 08-22-2008, 06:53 PM   #98
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This is not the time or the place, and adding such a charge to sexism, shows your own naivete and inability to understand any perspective but your own.

I think there is quite a lot of 'failing to understand any perspective but your own' from the left wing side on FYM, but in fairness, I would not apply that to Irvine.
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Old 08-22-2008, 07:12 PM   #99
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You're right. Irvine's (perceived or intended) theological slap in the face comes on a particularly bad day. Sorry Irvine.
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Old 08-22-2008, 07:16 PM   #100
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nathan, i was posting in response to FG, who turned this thread into yet another abortion thread, and thus, that's where my comments came from.


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In the situation we're discussing, the doctors were happy to offer referrals to other doctors. So this is a bit of a non sequitor.

perhaps, but this situation gets to what i keep suspecting the pro-life movement is really about -- female sexuality. if the pro-life movement were actually concerned about the metaphysical status of the fetus, then they'd be less hostile to birth control than they presently are, as exemplified by the doctors in question in this situation (which has now been expanded beyond a few bigots who want to deny IVF to lesbians).


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As someone who is currently mourning the loss of a close friend's child in the womb due to (among other reasons) her diabetes, I find this patently offensive -- as if God is the only force in the universe. If you'd like to have a discussion about the role of God, natural law, and good and evil in the universe, by all means. This is not the time or the place, and adding such a charge to sexism, shows your own naivete and inability to understand any perspective but your own.


good. i'm glad you find this offensive. i'm wondering why so many little babies are murdered when they frequently do not attach to the uterine wall and are subsequently flushed down the toilet. this happens millions of times a year -- and it's a fully natural process. this is why objections to "Plan B" is utterly ludicrous, because what Plan B does is prevent the zygote from implanting in the womb by making the woman's body think that hse is already pregnant.

because i have too much respect for you, i'll set aside the last sentence since it seems this struck an emotional chord. i am sorry for your friend's loss, but i am not sorry, not at all, at teasing out the faults of viewing every conception as a little baby and by simplifying an exceedingly complex issue to be about "murder."
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Old 08-22-2008, 07:17 PM   #101
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Your moral high ground sinks when you're talking about murdering defenseless babies in the womb, Martha.

I stand by my statement. When your daughter is seeking medical care, for whatever reason, and it's denied because the doctor finds it "objectionable", then you can tell how you feel about it.
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Old 08-22-2008, 07:17 PM   #102
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You're right. Irvine's (perceived or intended) theological slap in the face comes on a particularly bad day. Sorry Irvine.


it's fine -- i just edited my response.
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Old 08-22-2008, 07:20 PM   #103
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People who fervently support abortion on demand forget to put themselves in the baby's position.

You're right. I put myself in the position of the living, breathing woman who is pregnant and will be forced to carry the fetus to full term because someone sitting on a couch in another state (or country in your case) has decided he knows better than she what should happen to the collection of cells inside the living, breathing woman. And that somehow the "rights" of that collection of cells is more important that the rights of a living woman.
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Old 08-22-2008, 07:22 PM   #104
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As someone who is currently mourning the loss of a close friend's child
Believe it or not, I am also sorry for your loss and pain about this.
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Old 08-22-2008, 07:34 PM   #105
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You're right. I put myself in the position of the living, breathing woman who is pregnant and will be forced to carry the fetus to full term because someone sitting on a couch in another state (or country in your case) has decided he knows better than she what should happen to the collection of cells inside the living, breathing woman. And that somehow the "rights" of that collection of cells is more important that the rights of a living woman.
You're still doing it. The fact that you specifically use the pronoun 'he' in your post ("because someone sitting on a couch in another state (or country in your case) has decided he knows better than she what should happen to the collection of cells inside the living, breathing woman") - shows that you assume that ANY opposition to abortion MUST be created by a bunch of men sitting around dreaming up ways to oppress women. You seem to have completely ignored the link to the survey I posted above.

I accept that you are intellectually honest - in the sense that you honestly believe what you post - but I can't for the life of me see how you can blissfully filter out any opposing evidence or any evidence which hints that other points of view are valid.

Just answer one question, if you wish - why do 24% of US women surveyed support a ban on abortion, and why do a further 40% support abortion rights but with greater restrictions than currently exist? Why is it that 2/3's of US women support my point of view, and do not support yours?
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