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Old 01-27-2002, 12:17 AM   #16
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Okay, certainly U2 isn't a "Christian band" in the sense that they appeal only to Christians or in the sense that the "Christian rock" community embraces them - or vice versa.

And, at the same time, Lewis' audience is not strictly Christianity - or maybe even primarily Christianity.

But I still think it useful to call both Christian artists, without the quote marks. It first of all seems to me to be a sign of respect, an acknowledgement that C.S. Lewis and at least three members of U2 are in fact legitimate Christians.

But beyond that, they are Christian artists because Christianity informs so much of their art. If I had to name what parts of their personalities most influence their art, I'd say that Lewis expresses himself as a rational Christian, and U2 as Irish Christians.

Essentially, the thread of Christianity run too fully in their work. You cannot separate the art from the faith that helped inspire it.


Anyway, returning to Tolkien, you make a legitimate complaint; some people do find the rambling, completist's style a bit hard to muddle through; some don't.

And my problem with Harry Potter is NOT the training of child wizards; it's the frivolity with which they are trained. Compare it to the seriousness taken in considering Anakin's fate in Star Wars Episode I. Or, if you've read it, compare it with Ender's Game. In all three cases, we have children being taught to use very deadly powers.

And yet, in Harry Potter, there's a certain frivolity and non-chanlance that has no business being there. The school is attempting to teach them very powerful things while allowing them to act like regular children, and that's conceptually irresponsible.


(Oh, and Lord of The Rings is meant to be taken as one book, not a "convenient" trilogy, though I wonder how exactly a series of three books is convenient.)

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 01-26-2002).]
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Old 01-27-2002, 01:28 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:


Anyway, returning to Tolkien, you make a legitimate complaint; some people do find the rambling, completist's style a bit hard to muddle through; some don't.

And my problem with Harry Potter is NOT the training of child wizards; it's the frivolity with which they are trained. Compare it to the seriousness taken in considering Anakin's fate in Star Wars Episode I. Or, if you've read it, compare it with Ender's Game. In all three cases, we have children being taught to use very deadly powers.

And yet, in Harry Potter, there's a certain frivolity and non-chanlance that has no business being there. The school is attempting to teach them very powerful things while allowing them to act like regular children, and that's conceptually irresponsible.


(Oh, and Lord of The Rings is meant to be taken as one book, not a "convenient" trilogy, though I wonder how exactly a series of three books is convenient.)

Interesting points about Harry Potter. I mainly just considered them fun reads, don't quite understand why they've turned into such massive successes. I think there's plenty of children's lit out there that is far superior.

About Tolkien, I guess it's a matter of taste--the thing I love so very much about his books, the thing that puts them ahead of all other fantasy for me is the world he creates. With most other fantasy worlds, at best, you think it's a neat creation, you can escape there for a while, but it's not real (I would make a definite exception for Le Guin's Earthsea.) But with Tolkien, it's not just fun escapism. I KNOW it's real, because there is such a mind-boggling amount of depth to it and he believes in it completely. But no, not everyone wants to know the full story of Beren and Luthien or the six names of Anduril, Flame of the West.

Anyone read Lewis's Space trilogy? Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, That Hideous Strength. I have read them but only liked parts. I don't really remember enough to make intelligent commentary but I would be interested to know what others think.

And how about Charles Williams? Another one of the Oxford "Inklings," along with Lewis and Tolkien. His Arthurian poems, Taliessin Through Logres and The Region of Summer Stars are very difficult but quite amazing too. I also read one of his "supernatural thrillers," War in Heaven but found it very creepy and didn't really enjoy it.

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Old 01-27-2002, 10:16 AM   #18
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Achtung Bubba, I am sorry but I don't see what is more respectful about calling either U2 or Lewis 'Christian', ESPECIALLY the former, who countless and countless of times have been quite explicit about being seen as a 'Christian' band, how, if I may quote Larry 'I have more in common with non-Christians than with Christians, I'm not ashamed to say that'.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it would be particularly respectful to call them a 'Christian' band, why not be more respectful and call them a 'Human' band, concerned with very human values reflecting the human condition?

As for Lewis, I can understand your arguments and I can almost agree with them. I guess that I just think of him more as a proper artist. I dislike limiting the credibility of artists by placing names before them. It would be like calling Salvador Dali a 'fascist' artist, because of his political leanings, it would be like calling Picasso an 'erotic' artist because of some of his works - these labels ignore the bigger picture.

As for your Harry Potter arguments, again I don't see your point. I don't see why they should be learning about the dark side of their powers to destroy; if you'll recall they're being taught how to DEFEND themselves from the dark arts, just the SAME way the jedis are taught how to defend themselves, NOT to delve into the 'dark side'. As for 'the power to kill', you forget that the wizard world has a lot in common with our world in the sense that not all of us are trained to kill. You seem to want the kids to learn magical powers to kill others, when human children, if I recall properly from Home Economics class, are never taught how to use a gun.

I don't see where you're coming from; just admit that you don't like Harry Potter because of the style its written in and the audience its directed to, the whole argument about logic values and uniform notions in a book about magic baffles me.

If you're going to start with practicality, we will never end in the ridiculous world of Jedis and Wookies, and Orcs and Hobbits. All of these worlds are inspiring to different people, but they are all united under the same blanket of incredibility.

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Old 01-27-2002, 01:12 PM   #19
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I'm not going to "just admit that (I) don't like Harry Potter because of the style its written in and the audience its directed to", because that ISN'T it!

Since you didn't respond to the comparison to "Ender's Game", I'll assume you haven't read it and limit myself to Star Wars.

Look at the SERIOUSNESS with which the Jedi Council considered training Anakin Skywalker, a boy that was both very gifted and very succeptible to the Dark Side. Look at the seriousness Yoda demanded of Luke, the "most serious mind" that the training requires and the fact that Luke was told he must complete his training.

The Jedi are trained like soldiers, samurai, and preists - and they SHOULD be. Why? Because the skills they are learning are very dangerous, and with these powers comes great responsibility.

From the Quidditch game to the race for points for your group, there is NO such seriousness - at very least, none that I have seen in the film; to be honest, I haven't read the books, but I have asked my girlfriend, who has, whether my complaint has any validity.

It seems to me that the kids at Hogwart's are allowed to act like children. That WOULD be fine, but they're learning to use powers that most adults lack. With those powers they SHOULD be taught rigorous discipline, and it doesn't look like they are.

Environment aside (Orcs, wookiees, wizards, etc.), the reason I prefer the Star Wars galaxy and Middle Earth over Hogwart's is the fact that the behavior in the former STILL makes sense in context.


Now, to a more important topic, one that I should have covered earlier.

And also, your entire logic surrounding Jesus MUST have been either a 'madman', 'right' or an 'evil deceiver' is highly convoluted in my judgement - life is NEVER as black and white as that, just because your faith might be.

Yes, in this situation, life IS black and white, despite any reluctance to say that somebody else is wrong.

The reason is this: unlike Socrates or Confucius, Christ claimed to be the Son of God.

THE SON OF GOD.

If you are a normal human, claiming this status - the status of beign equivalent to God Himself - is as ridiculous as asserting, "I am a cabbage."

Christ said that He was God, there from before the beginning of the universe, all-powerful, all-knowing, unchanging, and everlasting.

He was either insane, demonic, or right.

One CANNOT honestly ignore His claim to the throne of God and say, "Well, he's still a good teacher."

It is that black and white. There are no other alternatives.
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Old 01-27-2002, 02:13 PM   #20
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Just so people know, I am reading this thread, so if people do have comments on C.S. Lewis, I am reading them. Thanks to those who have commented on him already.

As for the side debate, I'm letting it run it's course.

Melon

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Old 01-27-2002, 07:47 PM   #21
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"It seems to me that the kids at Hogwart's are allowed to act like children. That WOULD be fine, but they're learning to use powers that most adults lack. With those powers they SHOULD be taught rigorous discipline, and it doesn't look like they are."

That simply ISN'T true. The adults of the Magic Realm DO have such powers and went to schools such as Hogwarts, and DID learn discipline. Those who didn't accept such discipline, like Anakin, turned to the dark side when Voldemort took power and seduced them. I'm sorry, but if you haven't read the books then you can't really comment on it in depth, just as much as I don't presume to know about 'Ender's Game'. I saw the POTTER movie and didn't like it as much as the books at all, because the depth was missing, despite the length of the movie.

I don't doubt the 'seriousness' of the Jedi council (as much seriousness as one can have with a green midget with a tranvestite's voice leading the council - don't tell me that you don't get the giggles when picturing Yoda holding a lightsaber), but I also do think that Hogwart's and the educational discplines are just as severe, as you WOULD find out if you read the books. The books aren't as cosy as the movie made it out, the foreboding threat and danger of the 'dark side' of magic, and the power to discipline oneself to avoid it is very much the heart of the stories. Over the course of four books already we see how this is the case.

As for the context argument, I think the same applies to Potter. I don't doubt the context and the seriousness in Star Wars and Tolkien's Middle Earth at all, its all a question of styles to me - at the end of the day all three tell the EXACT same story; the struggle between good and evil, the light and the dark side.

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Old 01-27-2002, 11:48 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
That simply ISN'T true. The adults of the Magic Realm DO have such powers and went to schools such as Hogwarts, and DID learn discipline. Those who didn't accept such discipline, like Anakin, turned to the dark side when Voldemort took power and seduced them. I'm sorry, but if you haven't read the books then you can't really comment on it in depth, just as much as I don't presume to know about 'Ender's Game'. I saw the POTTER movie and didn't like it as much as the books at all, because the depth was missing, despite the length of the movie.
Then , at very least, the Harry Potter movie has its problems.

I'm glad to hear that the books were better at establishing the seriousness of their training, but that at least indicates that Star Wars is better on the big screen.

Quote:
I don't doubt the 'seriousness' of the Jedi council (as much seriousness as one can have with a green midget with a tranvestite's voice leading the council - don't tell me that you don't get the giggles when picturing Yoda holding a lightsaber)...
Nope, I don't, because I don't judge the character by his appearance.

"Judge me by my size, do you? And where you should not, for my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is."

Sorry you missed that point.
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Old 01-28-2002, 12:40 PM   #23
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CS Lewis lived a few streets away from me, I swear to Jaysus.......

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Old 01-28-2002, 12:51 PM   #24
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My favourite children's author is Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Anyone read him?

What were we talking about again?? (lol) Oh yes..! Melon, have you gotten hold of anything yet?

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Old 01-28-2002, 01:45 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Nope, I don't, because I don't judge the character by his appearance.
"Judge me by my size, do you? And where you should not, for my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is."
Sorry you missed that point.
Yes, and I'm sure if Bugs Bunny dished that same sentence while holding a light-saber you'd keep a straight face too. Oh, bleeding hearts of the world unite.

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Old 01-28-2002, 04:23 PM   #26
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Okay, fine... forget the Bugs comparison on account that Yoda is three-dimensional and replace him with someone like Elmo... or wait, the Cookie Monster, who is just as wise as the venerable Yoda, in my opinion.

No, I'm sorry, but I'm not green with envy (green is my favourite colour, though) and I do think I'm a better basketball player than the cute midget.

And I still don't see why he kicks ass;


* He was right about Anakin being dangerous.

Anakin in the movie was an obnoxious and conceded little brat - it doesn't take Mystic Meg to notice he's a nasty piece of work.

* He trained Luke, who restored the Jedi.

It took Luke THREE bleeding movies to learn about the Force, and no matter what he did, I still think Luke's a sissy compared to Han Solo - now HE kicked ass. Plus, Luke snogged his own sister, the sick freak. And don't tell me he didn't know, he was in contact with the force, he ALWAYS knew.

* He lifted a damn X-Wing!

That, I grant you. The little dude is cool, I just don't think he could beat Darth Vader, he kicked ass too and was always my favourite.


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Old 01-29-2002, 03:31 AM   #27
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How can you compare Yoda to Bugs? One's animated, the other's three-dimensional. One's naturally a smart aleck, the other is a wizened Jedi master.

Besides, Yoda kicks ass:

* He was right about Anakin being dangerous.

* He trained Luke, who restored the Jedi.

* He lifted a damn X-Wing!

Honestly, if you and Yoda were standing side-by-side, waiting to be picked for a game of basketball, he'd be picked first - and WE ALL KNOW THAT.

Yes, he hasn't got the size. But with his Force powers, he can shoot a three from the other side of the court.

Basically, I think your just envious - green with envy.
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