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Old 05-06-2007, 01:41 PM   #16
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The worst ever was 22% for Truman in 1952, but today Truman is regarded as one of the greatest Presidents ever.
Which isn't analogous to Bush and how they will view him in 50 years time.
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Old 05-06-2007, 01:45 PM   #17
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Over 70% of registered Republicans support Bush. According to the latest gallup poll, 40% of Americans are against any sort of pullout from Iraq. Bush's approval rating in the latest gallup poll is 36%.
Like I said, I only believe in polls when they support my position.
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Old 05-06-2007, 01:56 PM   #18
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Which isn't analogous to Bush and how they will view him in 50 years time.
Provided the United States does not prematurely withdraw from Iraq or Afghanistan and those country's develop stable and non-hostile governments, history will likely view Bush in a favorable light, especially when one compares the cost and success of those undertakings to others throughout history.
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Old 05-06-2007, 02:24 PM   #19
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Originally posted by STING2
According to the latest gallup poll, 40% of Americans are against any sort of pullout from Iraq.
This number does not necessarily translate into approval for Bush. I'm about as anti-Bush as you can get, and I'm vehemently against any pullout. The thought of pulling out of Iraq at this point and leaving the country and its people in a state of chaos, created by Bush in the first place, is morally repugnant to me. You broke it, you fix it.
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Old 05-06-2007, 02:31 PM   #20
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Originally posted by STING2
history will likely view Bush in a favorable light,
I want what he's smokin'!
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Old 05-06-2007, 04:50 PM   #21
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Old 05-06-2007, 06:10 PM   #22
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Olmert's approval rating is 2% now, he must be jealous.
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Old 05-06-2007, 06:24 PM   #23
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Originally posted by STING2


Provided the United States does not prematurely withdraw from Iraq or Afghanistan and those country's develop stable and non-hostile governments, history will likely view Bush in a favorable light, especially when one compares the cost and success of those undertakings to others throughout history.
Absolutely.
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Old 05-06-2007, 06:43 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega


Which isn't analogous to Bush and how they will view him in 50 years time.


yes it is. don't you see? history is only there for us to pull out numbers and then make a wild, completely unfounded comparison, and also to conveniently ignore context so that we can pretend like we're making an argument, when in reality we're saying very little at all.

the biggest question is whether Bush's total ignorance of the world will do more damage than his total inability to govern domestically. he's presided over the biggest foreign policy disaster since Vietnam in Iraq, and the biggest domestic disaster since Galveston in New Orleans.

the last thing history will be is kind to Bush. we're already seeing it -- look at the pains to which the current crop of Republicans are taking to distance themselves from easily the most corrupt, despised administration since Nixon, if not since Hoover.
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Old 05-06-2007, 06:56 PM   #25
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History may yield objective facts; such as what the CIA knew about Saddam, WMD, Al Qaeda and other Islamist groups and the decisions of the administration between September 11 and March 2003. It hasn't played out yet and it is still all ad infinitum politics from Sting (two resounding electoral victories) to Irvine (worst FP disaster since Vietnam).
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Old 05-06-2007, 07:03 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


Provided the United States does not prematurely withdraw from Iraq or Afghanistan and those country's develop stable and non-hostile governments, history will likely view Bush in a favorable light, especially when one compares the cost and success of those undertakings to others throughout history.
You make me want to cry.
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Old 05-06-2007, 07:19 PM   #27
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It hasn't played out yet and it is still all ad infinitum politics from Sting (two resounding electoral victories) to Irvine (worst FP disaster since Vietnam).



while i think we can all agree that history remains to be determined, and i do take the point about the Bono-ist becoming a monster in order to defeat a monster, of the two above statements you've attributed, which is the more defensible? does losing a popular vote and then being re-elected by the smallest margin for an incumbent in the 20th century come close to "resounding"?
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Old 05-06-2007, 07:40 PM   #28
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Perhaps the problem is that history in the popular imagination gets glossed over; I mean Lincoln, FDR, Truman, Kennedy etc. all did things that are as ethically questionable as Bush - when Sting makes the comparison it's saying that Bush must be as great as Truman, maybe it should be that they each made decisions that infringed on individual rights or killed thousands of civilians to pursue the national interest.
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Old 05-07-2007, 01:18 AM   #29
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I mean Lincoln, FDR, Truman, Kennedy etc. all did things that are as ethically questionable as Bush
The PR problem Bush has, is his competency and the lack thereof.

Ethically, you could accuse any President of wrong-doing because that becomes the nature of the beast. Even Reagan had the Iran-Contra affair hanging around his neck, Clinton had bedroom problems, they are both the most popular Presidents since JFK.
In fact most of their harshest critics would admit a certain level of competency in both cases.

With GWB, it is transcending politcal parties and idealogical boundaries. The public perception of his competency was never strong even among those who supported him in 2000. They voted for him because of conservative, Christian values and a big electable last name, not because he ran an oil company into the ground and piloted a baseball franchise to severe medicority.

If this were an ethics number, I'd guess it'd be higher.
I don't think it's all that difficult to assess the situation (if one were a Bushie) and quickly come to the conclusion that he's still a good guy, probably meant well and just didn't have the tools (read:the ability to listen to dissenting opinions) to make a very good decision. If he's lost 15% or so of his support, I'd guess these people think something very similar. Rather than buy into the war crime argument or something.

Basically, I think for that 15% or so that is bailing, the social concerns are just outweighed by a ton of other more pressing problems.

If the SC overturns Roe in the next 20 months, he'll be seen as a revolutionary in the Republican and conservative circles. He'll take on mythic status. Otherwise, socially he's done nothing for his base or anyone else besides cut taxes for the rich. What about the history books will rewrite itself about the intelligence failures and the post war planning? It will not rewrite itself. Short of this thing turning around before 2010, it will become a debacle or it will have been turned around at the hands of someone else, who will take and be given credit.

Where would Bush fall into that mix historically?
Exactly as the history is and will be written.
Book after book, from Tenet's latest to Sheuer (sp?) to Richard Clarke, to Colin Powell speaking through his assistant Wilkinson, to Woodwards book, written from inside the Oval office.
They all say the same thing.

Some folks are waiting for a magic bullet to appear.
Bush will not be able to escape the last 4 years, period.
If democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan take hold and revolutionize the middle east, the whole thing turns around blah blah blah wine and roses etc., it will be the interventionalist foreign policy that gets the credit, dare I say, the actual neocons, the Perle and Kristol crowd who will look like geniuses, and their defense will ultimately be "had we had better leadership, we'd have saved time, money and lives" and the culprit then becomes, Bush, Cheney and Rummy. Fall guys, and if the circumstances were such, rightfully so. This administrations' goose is cooked barring a miracle in the next two years.
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Old 05-08-2007, 05:12 PM   #30
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If democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan take hold and revolutionize the middle east, the whole thing turns around blah blah blah wine and roses etc., it will be the interventionalist foreign policy that gets the credit, dare I say, the actual neocons, the Perle and Kristol crowd who will look like geniuses, and their defense will ultimately be "had we had better leadership, we'd have saved time, money and lives" and the culprit then becomes, Bush, Cheney and Rummy. Fall guys, and if the circumstances were such, rightfully so. This administrations' goose is cooked barring a miracle in the next two years.


very perceptive. the neo-cons have already widely turned against Bush, not for invading Iraq but for doing so in a wildly incompetent, indefensible manner. even if Iraq were to become roses and puppies in the next few years, Bush will still be damned for not having done it better.

there's no getting around that, you're absolutely right.
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