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Old 12-10-2005, 05:09 AM   #151
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^

Nicely stated, Moonlit
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Old 12-10-2005, 08:14 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
There's a lot of thoughts I have about this, too many to set down, so I'll just ask when we let Ebenezer start dictating terms of the holiday?

You don't want to celebrate Christmas? Don't. But about 80% of America is Christian, and CHRISTMAS is the holiday they celebrate. If you'd like to celebrate something else, or go somewhere where it's not celebrated at all, there are plenty of countries where you can do that. Have a good time, send me a Christmakwanakah card.
Nice to see that the Bush Administration disagrees with you.

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Old 12-10-2005, 08:28 AM   #153
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I put this card/painting up on my desktop before I saw this thread. a photo of it was in the online newspaper I look at each day.

Now Im too lazy to go and look through this whole thread to see if someone already pointed this out....

this painting is by Jamie Wyeth

he , his father and his grandfather....they are iconic American artists Im surprised that article doesnt point that out.
I just thought Id mention it ...

id encourage anyone to forget all this religious stuff...and center on the emotional stuff and go to one of the many Wyeth resources on the web and enjoy thier work .....hopefully as much as I do...
just stop the hate and give your dogs, cats...a hug .....er sumtin of the like
all this bickering on the computer turns your ass into something similar to boiled cabbage
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Old 12-10-2005, 10:14 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


You could just walk around saying F.O.A.D.
Larry Christmas?
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Old 12-10-2005, 10:41 AM   #155
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arggh... I just wrote a long post I was quite pleased with and somehow hit reset form
but mostly it was points made by Ellen Goodman in her column from yesterday, so I will go ahead with a minor violation of the re-instated editorial-posting policy and post a chunk of it here:

Quote:
There are a dwindling number of battling days until Christmas. The malls are filled with so much Christmas Muzak that we are all longing for a silent night. Nevertheless, we are again treated to the notion that Christmas is beleaguered and besieged and battered by the forces of diversity and secularism.

Jerry Falwell's Liberty Counsel is running a "Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign." James Dobson's Alliance Defense Fund is running a "Christmas Project" with the motto: "Merry Christmas. It's OK to say it."

Fox News' John Gibson has killed who knows how many trees to print "The War on Christmas." The combined forces of the Catholic League, the American Family Association and Bill O'Reilly have accused Target and others of banning Christmas by wishing their customers a "Happy Holiday." And to top it all off, the Committee for Justice is running ads that promote Supreme Court nominee Samuel Alito as a sort of Father Christmas figure who will defend religion.

On the one hand, the Christmas defense team is portraying its side as the overwhelming majority, the 90 percent who celebrate Christmas. On the other hand, they are describing themselves as oppressed, indeed victimized.

On the one hand, they want more Christ in Christmas; on the other hand, they want more Christmas in the marketplace. It makes one long for the screeds against commercialism.

The last real war against Christmas was, in fact, a religious war. It was waged in my hometown by Puritans who banned mince pies and plum puddings and declared that celebrating Christmas was a criminal offense. In 1711, Cotton Mather gave his famous lecture against "mad mirth," "long-eating," hard-drinking and reveling "fit for not but a Saturn or Bacchus."

As for American history, let us remember that Congress convened on the first Christmas of the new Republic, Dec. 25, 1789. Christmas wasn't a federal holiday until 1870.

I admit to being bemused with today's one-size-fits-all "holiday" season. How did the celebration of the birth of Christ elevate Hanukkah from minor- to major-league status?

But living in an extended family as well as a country that celebrates holidays that range from Hanukkah and Christmas to the Chinese New Year with stops along the way for Druidism, I also understand why "holiday" appears on everything from the president's greeting card — with three pets frolicking in the snow — to the office party. Conversely, one of the hallmarks of the culture wars is the way tolerance of diverse beliefs is reframed as intolerance for the majority.

We are familiar with seasonal blow-ups over church and state. Some end in absurd compromises that put Baby Jesus, the Maccabees and Frosty in a December trinity. These cases are often thinly veiled battles for ownership of public space.

But this year's blow-up over church and store? A battle between Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays? I thought religion was supposed to remind us that there's a separation between pew and marketplace.

If the religious right is worrying about the erosion of Christmas, maybe it should focus more on the megachurches around the country that colluded to close on Sunday, Dec. 25, for fear they wouldn't have enough customers. Christmas, they demurred, is a family day. HappyFamilyday to you?

As for this orchestrated seasonal battle, let's give the final word to the Druids. The mistletoe was also sacred to our Celtic forebears. That ritual kiss beneath the mistletoe was meant to seal the end of a dispute. The war against Christmas? How about a little peace on Earth.
here's a link to the full article, and sorry for the violation!
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsourc...&date=20051209

my own post would have taken up at least as much space if I hadn't lost it

cheers all!
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Old 12-10-2005, 12:00 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


This is exacly the arrogance and the problem we have here in America.
Isn't it arrogant to tell 80% of the population what they can and can't say?

Particularly when for hundreds of years, no one's really complained about hearing "Merry Christmas"?

No one's telling anyone they HAVE to say Merry Christmas. But at the same time, don't freedom of speech rules allow people to say whatever they like?

If you can argue that Merry Christmas is hate speech, that's one thing. But I don't think that's what we're arguing...

I realize this has gotten off the Bush holiday card thing, so I digress.
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Old 12-10-2005, 01:56 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Isn't it arrogant to tell 80% of the population what they can and can't say?

No one's telling anyone they HAVE to say Merry Christmas. But at the same time, don't freedom of speech rules allow people to say whatever they like?

Oh wait!!! Now this is a freedom of speech issue?

Oh you poor oppressed religious outcast.

It's almost funny...
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Old 12-10-2005, 02:32 PM   #158
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to make myself clear, for the final time in this thread:

i think both sides come across stupid in this entire debate.

the left for acting like pathetic panzies, and the right for over-reacting like a bunch of babies. read that article posted be shellbethere...those "action groups" are hilarious.

this whole debate is 7ust so silly to begin with. i don't get why it's such a big deal.
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Old 12-10-2005, 04:25 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Oh wait!!! Now this is a freedom of speech issue?

Isn't it? Oh, I see....it only is if you say it is?

A principle (in this case, the right of people to say what they please, particularly when it's not oppressing anyone else) is either correct or incorrect. Period.

Unless we're going to be honest and admit that, deep down, the principle at work is "I don't want to hear anything I don't want to hear."

Because that is ultimately what we're saying, isn't it?

Enlightening.
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Old 12-10-2005, 04:34 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Isn't it? Oh, I see....it only is if you say it is?

A principle (in this case, the right of people to say what they please, particularly when it's not oppressing anyone else) is either correct or incorrect. Period.

Unless we're going to be honest and admit that, deep down, the principle at work is "I don't want to hear anything I don't want to hear."

Because that is ultimately what we're saying, isn't it?

Enlightening.
Has nothing to do with freedom of speech. That's ridiculous. No one's getting arrested or punished over this. It comes down to courtesy. Thinking of yourself vs. thinking of everyone around you.

It's very telling, when it's the "christians" who don't seem to get this.
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Old 12-10-2005, 04:44 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
It's very telling, when it's the "christians" who don't seem to get this.
Particularly when they use their "80%" to pick on a "10%" and feel absolutely no guilt.

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Old 12-10-2005, 05:37 PM   #162
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It seems rather self-serving when an extreme minority demands everyone cowtow to their needs.

"Thinking of yourself vs. everyone around you" indeed. Take a look in the mirror.
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Old 12-10-2005, 05:42 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
It seems rather self-serving when an extreme minority demands everyone cowtow to their needs.

"Thinking of yourself vs. everyone around you" indeed. Take a look in the mirror.
It seems especially self-serving when the extreme majority insists on dictating the terms of something that affects a minority that does not affect the majority at all one way or another.

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Old 12-10-2005, 06:06 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Take a look in the mirror.
I do, every morning, and I can feel good about myself knowing that I take in consideration the world around me and not just the majority that I belong to.
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Old 12-10-2005, 06:34 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
^

Nicely stated, Moonlit
Thanks .

Angela
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