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Old 01-20-2005, 06:15 AM   #46
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe


Moral Values (22%) 18% / 80%
This just backs my theory that this country has actually lost all moral ground.

Gay marriage and abstinence only programs are not morals!!! Especially when most who voted this way turned a blind eye to the torture scandal and could care less that Bush has made it harder for senior citizens to get their prescriptions. Morals? Give me a break. The GOP has lost sense of what true morals are.
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Old 01-20-2005, 11:31 AM   #47
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First off, I agree that abstinence-only programs are not a slice of bread for everybody. It won't stop teen sex and teen pregnancy. I think abstinence should be encouraged, but protection should also be taught. I also agree that the administration should FIGHT HARD against the torture scandal instead of considering Alberto Gonzales - a torture supporter - as a replacement for John Ashcroft. Health care and perscriptions are not exactly my field of study, but if you have a case, I invite you to present it.

You did not mention the conservative stance over the legality of abortion - a major political issue - and as many conservatives like myself see as a major moral issue as well. I don't exactly want to turn this into an abortion thread, but the issue seems to swing in a conservative direction nowadays. I don't know if you know this, but Norma McCorvey, the woman once known as "Jane Roe" whose protest against Texas' abortion ban led to possibly the most notorious and politically divisive court case since the Civil Rights Act of 1964 we know as Roe vs. Wade, NOW ASKS THE SUPREME COURT TO OVERTURN ROE VS. WADE!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,144865,00.html

In response, I would like to ask you this: what would promote TRUE morals? Certainly not the legalization of marijuana, or the legalization of prostitution. I would think a ban on torture tactics would help. I would think that a compromise of promoting abstinence as well as educating teens how to use protection would help.
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Old 01-20-2005, 12:50 PM   #48
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Originally posted by Diane L
The man thinks he has a mandate, with only 51% of the vote, and that everything he does is correct.

It's going to be a long four years...!
Hi.

<unless their arrogance gets so bad [it's bad enough now] that enough people in governemnt, and populous will reach 'critical mass' to demand impeachment & ousture>
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Old 01-20-2005, 02:23 PM   #49
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You did not mention the conservative stance over the legality of abortion - a major political issue - and as many conservatives like myself see as a major moral issue as well. I don't exactly want to turn this into an abortion thread, but the issue seems to swing in a conservative direction nowadays.
Yes but two major things here. One anti-abortion does not = morals. It may be one moral but it does not equal morals. Two Bush isn't going to do a damn thing to make it illegal.



Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

I don't know if you know this, but Norma McCorvey, the woman once known as "Jane Roe" whose protest against Texas' abortion ban led to possibly the most notorious and politically divisive court case since the Civil Rights Act of 1964 we know as Roe vs. Wade, NOW ASKS THE SUPREME COURT TO OVERTURN ROE VS. WADE!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,144865,00.html
Yes this has been around for awhile. It still doesn't make what the Supreme Court did any less wrong. That's all I will say for this is not a thread about abortion.

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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

In response, I would like to ask you this: what would promote TRUE morals? Certainly not the legalization of marijuana, or the legalization of prostitution. I would think a ban on torture tactics would help. I would think that a compromise of promoting abstinence as well as educating teens how to use protection would help.
Who said anything about pot or prostitution? I don't every remember a canidate standing on the platform of legalizing either of these.

True morals would be a platform that was designed to truly help those in need. Issues that truly helped the elderly, help the children, helped the sick, and helped the poor not taking away rights to certain groups, not lining the pockets of huge corporations, and not allowing tax breaks for those who take away jobs from Americans.

The whole "moral" thing was a ploy and too many fell for it hook line and sinker, but if they really took a look at their personal morals and really took a look at their president's policies they'd choke on their own vomit. I'm not saying they still wouldn't vote for Bush most would, they just wouldn't claim moral reasons.
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Old 01-20-2005, 04:13 PM   #50
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I'm kind of glad this thread changed to a discussion of morality. Perhaps what is the divide in this country is a difference in how people view morality. I think we are a strange country.
1. We get all horrified about Janet Jackson's breast when
during the same Superbowl, they ran promos featuring
photos of Brittany Spears showing much more flesh than
Janet Jackson did. (This is the same FCC who had conniptions
about Bono saying fuck)
2. We have a former attorney general who covered up the
naked breast of a work of art. I'm sure that statue set
off the prurient interests of the populace.
3. We have a government opposed to the legalization of
medical marijuana while allowing morphine and other
hard core narcotics to be used for pain control (and those
narcotics should be allowed!) and an FDA that is slow to
approve potentially life-saving experimental drugs but
is quick to approve every money-making bonanza of the
pharmaceutical companies whether they are dangerous to
the public or not.
4. A country who criticizes the irresponsibility of welfare
recipients but thinks corporate welfare for mismanaged
companies is perfectly acceptable.
This country doesn't expect people to behave morally--as long as they talk about morals. One of my major complaints about this country--all image, diminishing substance. As long as people
see us as a moral beacon, we don't really have to be.
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Old 01-20-2005, 05:59 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Do Miss America
Who said anything about pot or prostitution? I don't every remember a canidate standing on the platform of legalizing either of these.
I wasn't referring to the candidates, as much as those who support liberal candidates. Quite a few of them have no objection to legalizing prostitution and legalizing marijuana. Perhaps if one politician was devoted to either one of them, I don't doubt [s]he would get support from closet potheads, so to speak.

Quote:
Originally posted by Do Miss America
True morals would be a platform that was designed to truly help those in need. Issues that truly helped the elderly, help the children, helped the sick, and helped the poor not taking away rights to certain groups, not lining the pockets of huge corporations, and not allowing tax breaks for those who take away jobs from Americans.
I agree about the elderly, sick, and the poor. According to these election results, taxation wasn't even a major issue. An undecided, non-political voter is probably not going to be convinced by taxation. I would think their feelings on social issues would dictate leaning them towards a certain party or candidate.

Quote:
Originally posted by Do Miss America
The whole "moral" thing was a ploy and too many fell for it hook line and sinker, but if they really took a look at their personal morals and really took a look at their president's policies they'd choke on their own vomit. I'm not saying they still wouldn't vote for Bush most would, they just wouldn't claim moral reasons.
How about calling them Social Issues? Is that a phrase you are a little more comfortable with?

PS: Seems like corporations also support liberals as well: http://www.cnsnews.com/Culture/Archi...20020802b.html
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Old 01-20-2005, 06:29 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I wasn't referring to the candidates, as much as those who support liberal candidates. Quite a few of them have no objection to legalizing prostitution and legalizing marijuana. Perhaps if one politician was devoted to either one of them, I don't doubt [s]he would get support from closet potheads, so to speak.
I've seen you bring this issue up before and it cracks me up. You seem to think this is a huge issue on the Democratic ticket. Well it's not. And to be honest out of all my friends who support the legalization of drugs is about 50-50 Rep to Dem. I know a lot of Reps and Libertarians who would love to make them legal and tax the hell out of them.


Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

I agree about the elderly, sick, and the poor. According to these election results, taxation wasn't even a major issue. An undecided, non-political voter is probably not going to be convinced by taxation. I would think their feelings on social issues would dictate leaning them towards a certain party or candidate.
I'm talking about Bush's tax break for companies who outsource and take jobs from Americans. To me that's not a tax issue it's a moral issue.


Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

How about calling them Social Issues? Is that a phrase you are a little more comfortable with?
No just call it banning gay marriage because when it boils down to it that's the only "moral" issue people were talking about.


Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

PS: Seems like corporations also support liberals as well: http://www.cnsnews.com/Culture/Archi...20020802b.html
I don't think promoting diversity is "corporations supporting liberals".
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Old 01-20-2005, 07:23 PM   #53
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I've seen you bring this issue up before and it cracks me up. You seem to think this is a huge issue on the Democratic ticket. Well it's not. And to be honest out of all my friends who support the legalization of drugs is about 50-50 Rep to Dem. I know a lot of Reps and Libertarians who would love to make them legal and tax the hell out of them.
It isn't this generation of liberal candidates that are fighting for legalized drugs, but the fact that liberals seem to want a whole lot of junk food legalized. I can tell you that someday in our lifetime, this will be a much more politically divisive issue, and liberals are going to support it.

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No just call it banning gay marriage because when it boils down to it that's the only "moral" issue people were talking about.
I am far more interested in overturning Roe vs. Wade than banning gay marriage.

Quote:
Originally posted by Do Miss America
I don't think promoting diversity is "corporations supporting liberals".
The buzzword "tolerance" is the same word used by the radical activists that call me stupid, intolerant, and bigoted for not supporting their agenda, or cause, if you like that word better. It's like the word values is to you. You wouldn't want a "Values Program" forced on you that perturbs employees and promoting traditional marriage, and forcing you to accept that and only that. You come there to work, and if you aren't respectful to those who don't share your beliefs, you will be called on it.
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Old 01-20-2005, 07:48 PM   #54
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe


I am far more interested in overturning Roe vs. Wade than banning gay marriage.
Never gonna happen.
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

The buzzword "tolerance" is the same word used by the radical activists that call me stupid, intolerant, and bigoted for not supporting their agenda, or cause, if you like that word better. It's like the word values is to you. You wouldn't want a "Values Program" forced on you that perturbs employees and promoting traditional marriage, and forcing you to accept that and only that. You come there to work, and if you aren't respectful to those who don't share your beliefs, you will be called on it.
So if I worked with you, you wouldn't have a problem me being discriminated against. This is what you are saying.

There's a big difference in banning rights and teaching tolerance!!! How come you can't see that? You honestly have a problem saying homosexuals are human too and can't be discriminated against in the workplace?

I'm not sure what this agenda is you keep speaking about. Can you please explain it to me?
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Old 01-20-2005, 08:01 PM   #55
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So if I worked with you, you wouldn't have a problem me being discriminated against. This is what you are saying.
You're kidding. Absolutely kidding. I am all for the employee handbooks that prohibit discrimination of any kind. I am all for kicking a rude, ignorant customer out of the workplace for being a bastard.

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Originally posted by Do Miss America
[B]There's a big difference in banning rights and teaching tolerance!!! How come you can't see that? You honestly have a problem saying homosexuals are human too and can't be discriminated against in the workplace?/B]
You're going way overboard on this, please read my last comment.

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Originally posted by Do Miss America
I'm not sure what this agenda is you keep speaking about. Can you please explain it to me?
I am least favorable to the activism, especially the leftist activists that are marching into churches, slicing time out of education, and calling me intolerant, bigoted, and hateful for having differences with them. I mind my business, and I don't attack gays. I just don't promote the lifestyle the activists are leeching at me.
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Old 01-20-2005, 08:08 PM   #56
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You're kidding. Absolutely kidding. I am all for the employee handbooks that prohibit discrimination of any kind. I am all for kicking a rude, ignorant customer out of the workplace for being a bastard.

You're going way overboard on this, please read my last comment.
So then what in fact do you have a problem with about the article you showed me because I'm not getting it.
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

I am least favorable to the activism, especially the leftist activists that are marching into churches, slicing time out of education, and calling me intolerant, bigoted, and hateful for having differences with them. I mind my business, and I don't attack gays. I just don't promote the lifestyle the activists are leeching at me.
Ok you're throwing everyone in the same pot. This article has nothing to do with the people marching into church. Just like pro-life groups having nothing to do with those who kill abortion doctors.

You still haven't defined the agenda.
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Old 01-20-2005, 08:17 PM   #57
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The agenda:

Force beliefs into society, using words like bigot, homophobe, and intolerant to describe those who won't give up theirs. Badger the media to promote homosexual behavior. Portray ourselves (the activists) as victims, and the right as haters. Test children's sexuality at a very young age, through "tolerance programs" in public schools. Annoy and annoy until people just give up and get tired of arguing with us.

Perhaps a different approach - less aggressive and more compassionate - would make some think a little differently.
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Old 01-20-2005, 08:19 PM   #58
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Ok you're throwing everyone in the same pot. This article has nothing to do with the people marching into church. Just like pro-life groups having nothing to do with those who kill abortion doctors.
Just like to comment that these certain "pro-lifers" who kill abortion doctors aren't pro-life at all.
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Old 01-20-2005, 09:32 PM   #59
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
The agenda:

Force beliefs into society, using words like bigot, homophobe, and intolerant to describe those who won't give up theirs. Badger the media to promote homosexual behavior. Portray ourselves (the activists) as victims, and the right as haters. Test children's sexuality at a very young age, through "tolerance programs" in public schools. Annoy and annoy until people just give up and get tired of arguing with us.

Perhaps a different approach - less aggressive and more compassionate - would make some think a little differently.
Ok now we're getting somewhere you've finally defined it.

First of all I'm a little perplexed about the line of badgering the media to promote homosexual behavior. What's homosexual behavior? Do we BEHAVE any differently then heterosexuals? No we are just attracted to the same sex. Our lives are the same. So please get the myth of we behave any differently out of your mind.

We're not forcing beliefs! We're saying we're gay this is who we are, don't hate us for being who we are. We aren't hurting anyone, our lives are no different, our work ethic isn't any different, let us love who we love it's consentual!

We are victims. We're victims of discrimination everyday. We're victims in the sense that we don't have the same rights as you. We're victims in the sense that the only people that have a problem with us are those that interpret the Bible a certain way and call us sinners. Well you know what we're all sinners. My loving another woman is not a sin!!! You're cheating on your wife is a sin, yet you want to make my relationship against the law and not your cheating.

I'm sorry if this is annoying you. I'm sure blacks annoyed many whites when they were trying to claim equal rights. I'm sure many women annoyed men when they claimed equal rights. So if it takes a little bit of "annoying" you then I'm willing to do it, because nothing I'm doing is wrong. I'm in love with a girl, Jesus isn't going to deny me entrance into heaven so why are you denying me my rights?
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Old 01-20-2005, 10:04 PM   #60
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I would be willing to cite examples, but first I want to make it clear to you that I respect where you are coming from, and that it is not my intention to rile you up. It seems that all I'm doing when I state my personal views on this particular issue is pissing people off. I don't mean to do that, but they are serious issues, and they're out there. This issue has been presented to me almost daily this week, and I am trying my hardest to present where I am coming from without hurting anyone's feelings. Please understand that I am not trying to slam you.
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