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Old 07-30-2004, 05:12 PM   #136
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Originally posted by ThatGuy


Over the past couple of years Bush has consistently lowered my belief in the best case scenario happening. I'm sorry, but I can't take the Bush administration's policy on Iraq seriously. These were the same guys who thought we'd be greeted by the Iraqis with open arms and flowers, and therefore did very little to plan for the post-war situation. They're the ones who flew the "Mission Accomplished" banner, failing to realize that the real mission was the one that lay ahead, not the battle with Saddam's military. You're right, Kerry may not do any better. But from where I stand I don't think he could do any worse.
So in other words no matter what happens in the future...if this "scenario" that STING mentioned did followed through (you said it yourself you hoped it would) you still would not support Bush?
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Old 07-30-2004, 05:17 PM   #137
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Let's just say I'm not going to bank on it. If I had a time machine and could go to the future and see how things went, then I suppose that would make me change my mind. Is that what you're asking? How am I suppose to know that Bush's plan is successful before it happens?

There are also several other reasons I have for not voting for Bush. If I thought he had a reasonable plan for Iraq, or that I could trust those plans, I might consider holding my nose to vote for him. But seeing what he's done so far doesn't inspire confidence.
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Old 07-30-2004, 06:49 PM   #138
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Being one and knowing many myself, I beg to differ. I had a lot of financial problems in the 90's, and so did a lot of people. America was hurt as many jobs left the country, were elimated or became lower paying. Credit may have been easy to get, but it was hard to pay for and led some people to their financial doom. Clinton's laws eliminated the standards of the 80's where there was a limit to interest rates and late fees a card could charge. I had some cards go overnight from 9% to 29% interest. House prices skyrocketed (as they continue to do) But most people I know were worse off in the 90's than they were in the 90's.

I understand that you and many you know were hurting there will always be that, but I'm saying that from everything I've read the overall general numbers show that the middle class had a higher standard of living then than they do now. There wasn't as big as a divide from the middle class to the upper class, and not as much personal debt.

I haven't found anything on the poverty numbers yet.
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Old 07-30-2004, 08:47 PM   #139
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bush, but i can't vote since im only 17
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Old 07-30-2004, 09:56 PM   #140
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Originally posted by RocknRollKitty
As for poverty, Clinton's welfare to work programs did not help, they only forced people into jobs that were not paying as much as the welfare. Many had to drive out of state to find work when they were forced to find a job and there were none in the area. I know one tragic story of two women killed while driving home tired one night, and another of a lady who jumped off a bridge due to the stresss. Even the 'job training' jobs mostly paid only barely above minimum wage and not enough to live on. Because of free trade and other factors, more good paying jobs were lost, and people were forced to work 2 or 3 jobs to make up for what one used to do. I saw no one drug out of poverty in the 90s but I saw many drug into it.
But has it gotten better in the last four years? Have you been able to pull yourself out of debt? What has Bush done to help you and your family get out of debt?

More questions for you...the new jobs that the Republicans take credit for "creating" (I hate when any politicians take credit for "creating jobs") - are they any better than the jobs the Clinton Welfare program people were forced into? I would bet that a lot of the lower paying jobs people were forced into during the Clinton Years have become even MORE scarce due to peoples jobs running off to foreign soil (ask ABEL how her job has changed in the last two years even!).

My point (if you able to answer those questions) - I am not sure if anything has really improved in Bush's term in the way of poverty in America.
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Old 07-30-2004, 09:58 PM   #141
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I would say the answer is no, we are not better off than in the 90s but we are no worse off. I do not believe anyone really cares about the poor or will do anything to help them. I really don't. While I agree Bush has done nothing and will do nothing, neither will Kerry, the only difference is, Bush isn't going to lie about it.
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Old 07-30-2004, 10:22 PM   #142
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True...Bush will not do anything (not giving him an opportunity to lie about it). I think Bush has already had his share of lies!

So, he will not do anything for poverty, AND will continue to lie!

Great reasons to vote for someone!
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Old 07-30-2004, 10:57 PM   #143
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You think Kerry's not a liar too? That convention was some of the most theatrical, contrived, prewritten propaganda I've ever seen since history class. They're all liars. Bush is the devil you know vs. Kerry being the devil we don't really know.
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Old 07-30-2004, 11:47 PM   #144
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Never said Kerry wasn't a liar....

Quote:
Originally posted by Lilac
Bush is the devil you know vs. Kerry being the devil we don't really know.
quite possible...
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Old 07-30-2004, 11:52 PM   #145
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You think Kerry's not a liar too? That convention was some of the most theatrical, contrived, prewritten propaganda I've ever seen since history class.
I guess you have paid attention to the last 4 years of propaganda huh?


Quote:
Originally posted by Lilac

Bush is the devil you know vs. Kerry being the devil we don't really know.
An interesting risk. 4 more years of a known devil, or 4 years of a possible devil...
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Old 07-31-2004, 12:18 AM   #146
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american-bush.

i dont trust kerry with the war.
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Old 07-31-2004, 12:45 AM   #147
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The thing I didn't like about the convention was seeing the crowd go absolutely bonkers when the most ridiculous items were said by anyone that stepped up to the mic. You could have sent a chimp up there and the crowd would have cheered.

Another interesting fact was how Kerry didn't spend 15 seconds talking about Iraq in his speech. Maybe that was a safety move because he knows he's going against 84% of the people who will be voting for him if he mentions it.

But what will be interesting will be seeing how much bounce he gets. The latest general poll by ABC/Washington Post has Bush ahead slightly.

"A US public poll indicates that if the elections were held today, Bush would win the general election. The ABC Television/Washington Post poll indicates that while Bush gained four percentage points in July, his rival, Democratic candidate John Kerry lost two percentage points. Researchers point out that these figures show the two candidates are locked in a virtual dead heat. According to a poll conducted in late June, the number of voters preferring Bush was 44 percent. By the end of July, that number had risen to 48 percent. Kerry on the other hand was at 48 percent in June, but fell to 46 percent in July."

Another issue is I think is that the liberals hate Bush so much that they just want him out. They don't care who it is. I'm pretty sure if the Dems chose Bart Simpson to be their representative, they'd vote for him, as long as it wasn't Bush.

Also, I think Michael Moore should stop eating so much and give more food to the homeless and needy. I'm pretty sure we can stop hunger in small cities if he went on a diet.
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Old 07-31-2004, 12:54 AM   #148
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The thing I didn't like about the convention was seeing the crowd go absolutely bonkers when the most ridiculous items were said by anyone that stepped up to the mic. You could have sent a chimp up there and the crowd would have cheered.
This is ANY party convention! In fact, give it a few weeks and you WILL see a chimp with a suit on get up on stage and have a crowd cheer...right in your own back yard! I call this chimp "dubya"

Quote:
Originally posted by odowdpa
Another interesting fact was how Kerry didn't spend 15 seconds talking about Iraq in his speech. Maybe that was a safety move because he knows he's going against 84% of the people who will be voting for him if he mentions it.
His whole speech sounded pretty damn "Old Republican" to me. Tax cuts, increasing military.....

He talked about how the country is divided....I can't figure out why we are so divided. Both parties are claiming they will bring the same thing to the table!

Quote:
Originally posted by odowdpa
Also, I think Michael Moore should stop eating so much and give more food to the homeless and needy. I'm pretty sure we can stop hunger in small cities if he went on a diet.
Agreed!
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Old 07-31-2004, 01:03 AM   #149
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I almost did mention that the Republicans will be doing the same thing in a month's time, but it went against my whole theme - so I'm busted.

Actually, after reading Zoney's response, I think I agree with it entirely (except the knock on Bush)!

And going off topic for a second, if Kerry does win (major if!) who do you think is the next in the pipeline for the GOPers. I think a Guilliani/Powell team is almost unbeatable, no matter who they go against. Thats just me though.
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Old 07-31-2004, 01:12 AM   #150
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Would Rudy step up?

What about McCain?
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