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Old 09-29-2004, 01:55 AM   #76
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Iraq is an interesting case. Now you have Shiite majority who were supressed and the Baathists (predominantly Sunni). A crumbling dictatorship that in all probability possessed WMD was not the ideal situation, in the event of a collapse the only force in the region that could fill the power vacuum would be Iran and if they made a move against Iraq and annexed the Basra oil fields and then supressed the Sunnis and Kurds you would be in trouble, the Gulf States would be at risk and then global economies could be threatened.

If one can introduce an Arab/Persian Muslim democracy into the Middle East it raises the prospects of reforms immensly. Iran is allready looking shakey as it have a very strong reformist element who are fed up with theocracy. Countries like Egypt and Jordan would have to increase liberalisation measures as the populus would look to Iraq as a shining example of what their lives could be like if they had good governance.

The prospects for peace in the region would be increased, no longer could state televsion just blame everything on "The Jews", you could foster genuine understanding and mutual reciognition between Israelies and Arabs.

Liberty and democracy were only put into practice together relatively recent in the history of the world, one should not underestimate the transforming power that they can have on societies. Peace cannot be guaranteed while we play the same old games of propping up dictators for cheap oil, we must secure freedom for all people - then and only then will humanity be able to move forward free from hatred and superstition.

Islamism is not my word of the day. It has been a consitent theme throughout my posting here that it is a danger to the world. It is an expansionist ideology that like communism and fascism alike seeks to crush individuality and reinforce the power of an elite few.

You call me a fascist and yet I am absolutely pro free speech.

You call me a racist but and yet I think that all people are human and equal.

You call me ethnocentric and yet I oppose systems that are threats to diversity.

You are baiting this thread with a hatred that I have never seen here. If you want to be constructive then that is great but right now you are resorting to petty attacks which contribute little to the conversation. I may not like what you say but I believe that you have a right to say it - perhaps if you grappled with that concept you will realize that your baseless accusations to stifle my speech bear more than a passing resemblance to the groups which caused so much grief throughout the 20th Century.
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:56 AM   #77
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Kill everyone who refuses to adopt your will?
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Old 09-29-2004, 02:03 AM   #78
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The CIA, FBI, British government and American government have come out to say no weapons exist, that the information saying such weapons did exist was completely fictitious, Powell and Blair being the two highest ranking authorities to admit this truth. If Saddam had such weapons, why did he not use them in the Gulf War, or the present war? Did he purchase them because he enjoys collecting WMDs, or because he planned to use them? Again, he if planned to use them, why didn’t he use them?! Supposedly, he bought them to use against the American people, and the American people invaded his country! What better opportunity to use his WMDs? The only major weapon that has been found are minor traces of the chemical agent Saddam used against Iran. The only interesting thing about the invasion of Iraq is how the western world came to see it as necessary! Even more interesting, how you still see it as necessary!
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Old 09-29-2004, 02:05 AM   #79
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Actually, democracy can be traced back to the Ancient Greeks and Roman Empire. Most recently, it dates back to England near the end of the Middle Ages.
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Old 09-29-2004, 02:06 AM   #80
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Nobody is looking at Iraq for hope, not even the Bush administration. The world knows the war was illegitimate.
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Old 09-29-2004, 02:08 AM   #81
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
the only force in the region that could fill the power vacuum would be Iran and if they made a move against Iraq and annexed the Basra oil fields and then supressed the Sunnis and Kurds you would be in trouble, the Gulf States would be at risk and then global economies could be threatened.
I thought the debate was over western and eastern values, not western and eastern economics? Ah, the plot thickens!
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Old 09-29-2004, 02:12 AM   #82
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You are baiting this thread with a hatred that I have never seen here.
Don’t reverse my argument. The only hate I have expressed is against your insensitivity to the rights of other cultures to practice their own beliefs. The hate you have shown is against all is Islam(ism).
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Old 09-29-2004, 02:13 AM   #83
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1) I said liberty and democracy - the liberal democracy. This was a product of the age of enlightenment which drives home the importance of the individual and free will. This political model replaced the autocracies through the industrial revolution. Its influences stretch back into classical concepts but its implementation is much more recent.

2) Saddam Hussein had significant WMD stocks at the close of the Gulf War after the surrender. He revealed more than any foreign intelligence agency suspected. He had to verifiably disarm all banned weapons - the UNSCOM mission was obfuscated by the regime significantly, the most likely reason was that the regime still possessed and was working on weapons of mass destruction. In 1998 the regime made it clear that it was going to be uncoperative with the UN inspectors, in response President Clinton launched operation Desert Fox, an aeriel campaign to pull the regime into line, This was not properly resolved and the inspectors were removed. Since 1998 there were no weapons inspectors on the ground in Iraq. The sanctions were failing (I dont care what Powell or Rice said earlier in 2002 about them, most analysts agreed that it was not sustainable and was only killing Iraqi civilians). It was too great a risk to leave that regime in place, killing innocent people by the tens of thousands in the current environment. Intervention was right, around 150,000 less people are dead because of it.

3) Hold your opinions, go nuts. Just expect other people to be allowed to hold different views and be capable of accomidating that without leveling baseless emotional charges at them.
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Old 09-29-2004, 02:16 AM   #84
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According to you, free speech is essential unless it perpetuates Islam(ism). According to you, all people are equal unless they are Neanderthalic wrongdoing Islam(isms)ic people. Again, I ask, “What does ‘Islamism’ mean? Does it mean Iran and Afghanistan, but not Turkey? Or Saudi Arabia and Syria, but not Pakistan? Does it mean those that comply with the western will, or those that practise their own wills? And, “In American, there is not consistency among the primary values of the country. Some states are Republican, some are Democrat; some allow gay marriage, some do not allow gay marriage; some welcome minorities, some do not welcome minorities. What to do?” Your use of subjective morality does not apply to reality.
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Old 09-29-2004, 02:17 AM   #85
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Questions.

1) Do you consider all other cultural practices a right?

2) Do you consider clitorectomies as a cultural practice to be right?

3) Do you believe that religious sanctioned murder of women through honour killings is right?

4) Do you believe that religious sanctioned genocide is right?

5) Is it rational to think that all people deserve a good quality of life.

6) Do you think that it is allright for women to be treated worse than animals because the society deems that to be so.

Answer these questions and I will talk more.
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Old 09-29-2004, 02:21 AM   #86
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Saddam had chemical and biological weapons with limited range. In the time of the Gulf War, he had no significant air force or navy services; his only means of using such weapons was with the SCUD missile, which could barely reach Israel. After the Gulf War, all such weapons were taken away. Where was the threat leading into the invasion of Iraq?
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Old 09-29-2004, 02:21 AM   #87
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I hold dear people are free to hold any belief unless it hurts others. Islamism is a belief that inflicts suffering upon those living under it therefore it should not be tollerated. You cannot speak for libery if you support despotism, simple as that now answer the questions, if you can.
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Old 09-29-2004, 02:25 AM   #88
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Religiously sanctioned murders of all kinds are extremely rare. International intervention through the use of pre-emptive strikes is not necessary. Any such situation must be handled at the state level. Canada does not support capital punishment. Should Canada invade the Untied States of American and make them comply with such a belief? The western world cannot determine which cultures show appropriate values; similarly, eastern cultures cannot determine which cultures show appropriate values. Cultures must work together, not against each other. Our good life is not necessarily a Muslim's good life, or especially a Buddhist's good life. Each determine their own good life.
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Old 09-29-2004, 02:28 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I hold dear people are free to hold any belief unless it hurts others. Islamism is a belief that inflicts suffering upon those living under it therefore it should not be tollerated. You cannot speak for libery if you support despotism, simple as that now answer the questions, if you can.
To the terrorists I say:

I hold all people are free to practise any belief they want unless it hurts others'. Westernism is a belief that inflicts suffering upon those living under it; therefore, it should not be tollerated. You cannot speak for libery if you do not support religion.

Fun, eh?
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Old 09-29-2004, 02:28 AM   #90
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No, you are wrong.

You do not determine your life if you are living in fear for your life at the hands of a dictatorship. You are not living a good life if your husband beats you up to keep you submissive.

We are all human beings, we must all be afforded fundamental human rights - you advocate letting abuse slide because the society tollerates it. I say that that is wrong and counterproductive.
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