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Old 09-29-2004, 01:02 AM   #61
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Who made the western world responsible for dictating the rest of the world's values? If the situation was reversed, would you accept Islamic values?
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:08 AM   #62
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A country's constitution is specific to itself. Where the American constitution reads “the freedom of all people,” it means all American residents. The principle of freedom in democracy is ambiguous and generally is taken to mean simply that the people of any given democratic country are free to pursue their own beliefs within respect for other's beliefs.

I suggest you read anything on democracy to understand this point. It's quite different from the form of government you only seem familiar with, national-socialism!
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:14 AM   #63
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The solution to terrorism is to ensure that women are not treated like cattle. It is to make sure that clerics preach tollerance and understanding and not hatred against kafirs. It is to reform the political situation so that Muslims have the same rights as you or I and the same oppertunities. Is prosperity and freedom westernising them?
Terrorism is not specifically an Islamic phenomenon. Ah, that bombing, in ah, Oklahoma, who was responsible again? They weren’t Islamic. Ah. Oh, yeah! They were Christian fundamentalists! Oh shit. You know what this means? Now the western world, based exclusively on Christian beliefs, must destroy itself!

What about Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and Waco, Texas, too?
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:14 AM   #64
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No I would not.

Lets take a little scorecard of values here.

**Liberal Democracy**
>Liberty for all citizens, YES
>Equal rights for women, YES
>Freedom of expression, YES
>Freedom to elect leaders, YES
>Sexual freedoms, YES
>Seperation of the powers, YES
>Seperation of church and state, YES
>Freedom of worship, YES

Islamism
>Liberty for all citizens, NO
>Equal rights for women, NO
>Freedom of expression, NO
>Freedom to elect leaders, NO
>Sexual freedoms, NO
>Seperation of the powers, NO
>Seperation of church and state, NO
>Freedom of worship, NO

The liberal democracy is not strictly western in nature, many different countries with different cultures have embraced this political model which embraces free market capitalism and individuality as a means of operation. It contrasts sharply with Islamism which is a despotic system, it robs individuality and demands subservance to the Clerics. If one deviates from the "true path" dictated by the religious authority then punishment is harsh.

What you are advocating is that the political system of the Taliban is equally as valid as the liberal democracy one finds in Japan, United States, Canada, Turkey and All of Europe.

Freedom and democracy are much better at encouraging peace because the individual is allowed to make their own choices, the biggest foes of the 20th Century Communism and Fascism were authoritarian in nature, Islamism is no different, it is a political ideology operating in a globalised world - it is a dangerous ideology because of the intention of extermination of those that stand in its way.

What ever crushes individuality is despotism, nomatter what name it is called - (John Stuart Mill)
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:15 AM   #65
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Man, you’re like one big revolving, ever-evolving lie!
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:16 AM   #66
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Well your right terrorism is not strictly Islamic - I never said that it was but when was the last time you saw Buddhists ramming jet liners into skyscrapers, taoist suicide bombers or Mormons cutting childrens eyes out, raping them and killing them?

You sir are providing nothing to this debate other than accuse the pursuit of global freedom to be on par with Nazi atrocities and continue to excuse the most brutal of crimes in the name of moral relativism.

I tire of this frivilous argument, I have debated the point time and time again, regulars who have engaged in proper debate understand my position much better than you, you seem to be a hate filled individual intent on reducing the quality of debate - for which reasons I do not know,

Oh btw, you violated Goodwins law numerous times in this conversation - if you persist in doing so I may report some to a mod.
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:27 AM   #67
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Equality is only a principle in democracy, and while a country may outline it as a fundamental right, it is not always given to every citizens, much like your first negative for “Islamism”! Want proof? Ask aboriginals, blacks, Asians, and any other visible minority! So far, one for one. Next, the equality of sexes. Well, even in Canada and the United States are men paid considerably more than woman for the same amount of work. Two for two. Third, freedom of expression, this one is a little tricky. Remember the recent Republican convention in New York City and the treatment protestors received? If not, remember the WTO in Seattle, or the Million Man March in Washington, DC? Three for three. Next, the right to elect their own leaders, I think the last American election says enough here. Four for four. Next, freedoms, that seems somewhat redundant to what has already been said so I’ll just dismiss it. Bye. Five for five. Next, the separation of church and state, did you know there is a chapel in the American house of government, and President Bush often refers to God (not to mention the infamous “In God We Trust” on the American dollar bill)! Ok, so far, six for six. Next, worship, ah, apparently not. Look at your hate rhetoric, how can the right to free worship exist in a democratic society when the rights of bigots like yourself come first?! Making the total seven for seven. Man, come to think about it, we all suck. Destroy the world! The human race is a incurable disease!
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:35 AM   #68
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I’m saying that counter-terrorist measures like the pre-emptive strike only increase the occurrence of terrorism around the world. How is a foreigner supposed to value western principles when they seem only to contradict the most basic of all human principles? Lying, deceit, violence. There is no quality in your debating style and nothing but hate in your message. You are a ethnocentrist, a racist and a swindler. Dodge my attacks all you want because you can’t properly respond. You change the subject of our conversation as often as you change your opinion. I am well aware of your fractured beliefs and all my criticisms apply. You, sir, are a perverted political animal, who belongs in a Zoo-pora!
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:36 AM   #69
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How am I a bigot?
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:37 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Oh btw, you violated Goodwins law numerous times in this conversation - if you persist in doing so I may report some to a mod.


I plan to report the hate rhetoric you continue to vomit onto my computer screen.
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:43 AM   #71
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the enemy is Islamism, theo-fascism must end and to do so will require a massive drive to bring a lot of the Islamic world out from the dark ages.
Look up the definition of bigot, and look up you opinions about Islam(ism). Nuff said.

You generalize. Then, you claim not to generalize. Why can’t you realize you’re a bigot?

Islamism, as I have pointed out, includes the entire array of Islamic principles and people.
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:43 AM   #72
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Where is the hate rhetoric, I am of the opinion that all people are born with infinite potential - the natural state of man is free.

I said that a LOT of the Islamic world must be brought out of the dark ages. What I was saying is that many parts of the Islamic world barbaric practices like honour killings persist - I did not say all of the Islamic world hence no generalization.

I am trying to be level and you are getting shrill.
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:45 AM   #73
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Religion was not involved in Iraq. Saddam lead a secular state for the majority of his reign. When Islamic teaching did arrive, they were greatly limited. How do you justify invading Iraq?
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:47 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Terrorism is not the enemy - that is just a means of warfare, the enemy is Islamism, theo-fascism must end and to do so will require a massive drive to bring a lot of the Islamic world out from the dark ages.
Each person has potential from birth? Or when the west brings it to them?
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:54 AM   #75
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Level? You tilt back and forth! "Islamism" has to be your word of the day, but what does "Islamism" mean? Does it mean Iran and Afghanistan, but not Turkey? Or Saudi Arabia and Syria, but not Pakistan? Does it mean those that comply with the western will, or those that practise their own wills?

In American, there is not consistency among the primary values of the country. Some states are Republican, some are Democrat; some allow gay marriage, some do not allow gay marriage; some welcome minorities, some do not welcome minorities. What to do?
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