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Old 09-29-2004, 12:09 AM   #46
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I was not informed that enlightened liberty came in the form of anal rape and constant arrest.
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:15 AM   #47
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Look outside the United States, alternative solutions to fundamental differences in culture exist. In Canada, the desire for Quebec separation is heard and allowed. In total, three provincial referendums have been held regarding Quebec’s separation from Cananda. Trudeau, a Canadian prime minister, who in a moment of Quebec terrorism, enacted martial law on the entire province has been consistently criticized for his decision. The Cold War, which you seem contempt on resurrecting, was settled on relatively peaceful terms. What about Ghandi? Internally, how about Martin Luther King Jr.? Open your eyes.

Ironically, only the failed attempts at liberty are the ones that utilized force.
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:17 AM   #48
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A right cannot be fundamental if it is enforced!
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:17 AM   #49
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Where am I calling for elimination of Infidels - I am alluding to the modus opperandi of the Islamist movement, I am not saying that they are Infidels, I am saying that they are religious fanatics who wish to exterminate us all which is the inescapable truth of their ideology. They literally view all those that do not submit to their interperatation of Islam as worthy of death. Jews, Christian, Atheists and Moderate Muslims are all enemies in the eyes of these movements. I have absolutely no problem with people wanting to life their lives and worship freely. I do have a problem when that religious belief translates into violence.

You are attempting to use moral relativism to turn the argument topsy-turvy. I say that Islamist terrorists are a bad thing, that the entire concept of killing those who do not subscribe to their beliefs is wrong and you turn it around and say that I advocate the wholesale slaughter of an entire people.

Take a little look over some of the more recent terrorist atrocities such as Beslan and you may discover the reason that I feel fighting such a sick ideology that is the antithesis of liberty must be the principle goal of all free nations.

Global liberation, the right for people to live their lives free of fear and religious persecution. You may think that Saddam Hussein represented liberty more than any new Iraqi government may but that says more about you than I.

You are a troll, your arguments are essentially leveling charges that I am a fascist who wishes to exterminate all those that I do not agree with. You are wrong, your posts are offensive. I have answered your charges - if you want to flame then flame on, but I am quite sure that those on both sides of the political spectrum on FYM will come to my defence on the issue because they have somewhat better comprehension of what I advocate.

Good Day.
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:22 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Terrorism is not the enemy - that is just a means of warfare, the enemy is Islamism, theo-fascism must end and to do so will require a massive drive to bring a lot of the Islamic world out from the dark ages.
By taking the time to consider your arguments, I'm assuming you have statistical proof that all Islamic people are Neanderthalic wrongdoers. Please share.
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:29 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Where am I calling for elimination of Infidels - I am alluding to the modus opperandi of the Islamist movement, I am not saying that they are Infidels, I am saying that they are religious fanatics who wish to exterminate us all which is the inescapable truth of their ideology.
You did speak in general terms, bi-atch! The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming! Abandon the Third Reich and kill yourself!
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:31 AM   #52
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I said Islamist not Islam

Crutial difference.

Islam is a religion, people worship Islam, I have absolutely no problem with this.

Islamism is a political ideology. One where the imperitives of the state become governed by the Koran. Islamism is the political system that one finds in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan under the Taliban.

The principle goal of Islamist terror organizations is to create a truly global ummah. This would be having a global Islamic superstate in the mould of the Taliban. One would think that this type of poltical thought is in opposite of liberty, but I suppose that that would be wrong.

Now in regards to Global Terrorism I will make it clear. Not all Muslims are terrorists, a lot of Terrorists are Muslim.

There is an important distinction to understand. I am saying that the principle threat from terrorism is found in the Islamist terror organizations. Nationalist movements like ETA or the IRA have political considerations because they have political goals. Islamist organizations have wholesale slaughter on their minds, as witnessed on 9/11 and more recently in Beslan. Muslims will often support Islamist groups because they are the only legitimate alternative to the despotic regimes they suffer under. If all Muslims were free, if Islamic society became more open and advanced, doing away with honour killings and rapes - then the support for Islamist movements would be reduced.

All people deserve to live freely, unfortunately they dont. Peace cannot be guaranteed while despotic systems florish.

***EDIT***
Where did I make a big fuss about the Russians? I simply said that one must consider the broader situation when analyzing Cold War actions.

This is fun because you are going around calling me a fascist, making very simplistic arguments all the while pretending that I am irrational. To FYMers I present this as case in point of BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome) and wish to say it substantiates my claims in prior threads about such individuals
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:33 AM   #53
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For general knowledge: Christianity does not allow homosexual relationships or the use of contraceptives. However, not all Christians accept these principles. Similarly, Islam preaches Jihad, or Holy War, but not all Muslims accept this principle. In fact, most Muslims don’t accept this principle.
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:36 AM   #54
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In my opinion, the solution to “terrorism” is the admittance that cultural differences exist in the world, and the need for different cultures to work with each other in order to find similarities beyond their differences. War is no option when all other options have yet to be considered.
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:37 AM   #55
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Am I disagreeing, no.

Islamism represents a vast minority, but it is a very dangerous minority.

Islamists might take exception to understanding cultural differences. They are supremacists who want to see Islam as the only force on the planet, for the rest of time. Perhaps you could spend some time listening to Bin Laden's tapes and the Muslm Brotherhood organizations before you claim to understand their motivations. You are projecting your own pet hates onto their actions.

Play around with moral relativism and lump all blame onto those dumb Americans all you like - it doesnt change the fact that you are still worthy of death in their eyes.

I will never, ever tollerate fundamentalist Islam - but then someone who accepts having women treated worse than dogs must be more enlightened in the principles of universal liberty and equality than I.

I recomend that you read some literature on the subject of Fundamentalist Islam, it can be more enlightening than Michael Moore when considering the poorly named War on Terror, V.S. Naipaul is quite good, as it Alan Dershowitz (Why Terrorism Works and The Case for Israel).
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:48 AM   #56
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Wrong. To say "Islamism" is to say "Americanism" or "Canadianism". The "ism" just means to bring about the fundamental principals of said topic. Yes, crucial difference, but also crude logic. Fundamental principles are more than the tendency to use terrorism as a political weapon. For Islam, it can be the subordination of woman to men.

As for Russia, you made several references, and you also tried to divide equal responsibility for the Cold War among both involved parties. Aside from the communist call for all workers of the world to unite, the majority of responsibility can be passed along to the western world. For example, consider Weber’s Protestant work ethic and its importance in capitalism, the Red Scare, the unease Stalin inexperienced because of his western allies, and McCarthyism.
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:50 AM   #57
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Apparently, the solution to the world's terror problem is to counter "Islamism" with "Westernism"! The justification for this belief is A_Wanderers own testimony! Hypocritical, yes! But logical, well, ah no.
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:52 AM   #58
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Right, I forgive me - communism was the perfect system until the west started to try and undermine it. I have to go tell my Polish neighbour this news because shit, they made a mistake coming to Australia.

The solution to terrorism is to ensure that women are not treated like cattle. It is to make sure that clerics preach tollerance and understanding and not hatred against kafirs. It is to reform the political situation so that Muslims have the same rights as you or I and the same oppertunities. Is prosperity and freedom westernising them?

By the way, where is the hypocracy in advocating liberty and democracy for all people regardless of creed or race. I would think that hypocracy is saying that I may enjoy freedom because I live in a western country but because someone is born in an Islamic society they do not - freedom for me but not for thee type arguments.

You are trying to play petty word games, if you have never ever heard of Islamism then here is a very good definition for you. It is in common usage, well go look for yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:56 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I recomend that you read some literature on the subject of Fundamentalist Islam, it can be more enlightening than Michael Moore when considering the poorly named War on Terror, V.S. Naipaul is quite good, as it Alan Dershowitz (Why Terrorism Works and The Case for Israel).
Is this coming from the same guy who begged me to drop "irrelevant" topics? In this conversation, there has been no mention of Michael Moore from my knowledge, and certainly not one from me! Also, you can throw out all the names you want, they don‘t matter. One person's justification for war is not everyone else's. (Oh, and presently in the American political debate scene, books are either pro or against the war, and a book’s title is often the best indication of where it stands in the political debate!)
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Old 09-29-2004, 01:00 AM   #60
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Communism under Marx's intention has never been materialized. The western world did not object to communism because it was inhumane, but because it was in contradiction to democratic and commercial values. Nice try, though! And where was the western world prior to Hitler’s part over of Poland? Boy, you reasoning is so complicated and overlapping! No, wait, it’s just contradictive.

(Russia was not in any position militarily, politically or economically to counter the Nazi movement into Poland.)
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