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Old 06-29-2005, 07:33 PM   #46
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


I would prefer the money to go to Africans, directly, each and every African family. No one can tell me that´s too difficult, it´s a simple thing, they got bank accounts there, see. Also all the corruption problem wouldn´t be an issue either.
If you distributed money that way, how on earth would you be able to ensure that the people spend the money on the things you intend them to spend? How would you ensure that there are checks and control present in the system? It would have simply made for an even greater chaos.
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:41 PM   #47
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Do you actually think Bono would point out that Bush has ALREADY done more than any other President to fight this cause?

Yes, I give Bono a world of credit, however, he has spoken words about Bush in his book as well, long before meet the Press.

And my point is not that the US is doing enough....but that Bush has us going in the right direction...

It appears to me that the initial post of this thread is to point out that potentially the President is only doing something so that his friends can make a profit.

Apparently the President can do nothing right....

Yes he can.

First by being real about the US commitment to AID.
My main objection is the % that must be absinence based and mostly why not fund the Global AIDS fund with admin in place and NGo's onthe ground. It's like Oh educ,. too many admins and not enough money going for clients.


Give the money to the Global AIDS Fund and let them distribute. it
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:51 PM   #48
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No. The following is from avert.org.
Well first of all this isn't an abstinence only program. Secondly this information is being misrepresented by many. When I did the search for "Uganda abstinence programs" the first page was full of articles like the ones I posted above, and one from a Christian website. The one from the Christian website was hugely misrepresented. All they posted was that the number of HIV contractions have gone down and they presented that as abstinence programs working, what they didn't state was that condom use is up.

This program is OK but has one major problem. The problem being that when people see numbers drop in HIV contractions or they're in a relationship they stop using the condoms due to not having true sexual education. You can't just say if you have sex use a condom without true education behind it.

It's great if you want to teach abstinence first and then teach true sexual education along with it, but that's not what this is doing.
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:51 PM   #49
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Originally posted by Saracene


If you distributed money that way, how on earth would you be able to ensure that the people spend the money on the things you intend them to spend? How would you ensure that there are checks and control present in the system? It would have simply made for an even greater chaos.
with education and elected community members who distribute the money. for example, local NGOs can be built up, people can also develop their own economic strategies, like building up micro businesses.

as an example, family X has just one room without a floor and 8 children. so the elected community member proposes a solution for that problem, the money is trasferred, and (in the best case) a proper house can be built. family Y has a flat with a roof but the man is infected with HIV. he gets medication for free. family Z is fine, if only the next well would be nearer, but their son has studied and works and sends the family some money. the mother, however, does great artwork that she would like to sell on the market. the elected community member presents the solution: she can go to a course to learn how to market and sell her work, and build up a small place on the market where she will sell her stuff. since family X likes that kind of micro business, it decides not to build a house, but to rent a small flat in the city and to rent a car and offer a drivearound service for tourists.

if you want to cure a malfunction, the people who live in the region, exactly those who are poor, will know what they need most. water, food, housing; everything may not be possible, but as long as there is a certain flow of money to the elected community members for example elders who perform certain functions..

in the cities other rules may apply. generally, there are UN orgnaizations who can effectively monitor. if they would be used just for monitoring and assistance, they can perform good functions. but the main shift would be one to the people, not to politicians or dictators or incredibly big investments for infrastructure projects that will not work and might only serve to enrich an already existing small upper class.

distribute the money to the poor directly ensures that at least it arrives at the persons in need.
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Old 06-29-2005, 09:23 PM   #50
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My other question is, how well can the various NGOs ensure that what they give to the poor doesn't get taken away by those in charge, in the countries where they don't really wield any real political power? And how effectively can they deal with the corruption going on smaller levels? People tend to talk about corruption in clear-cut terms of, a) leaders/upper class and b) people, as if they are some sort of different species. When in reality corruption touches people on all levels of society.
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Old 06-29-2005, 10:01 PM   #51
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Originally posted by nathan1977
In the early stages of the epidemic, the government responded swiftly, giving out simple messages about abstaining from sex until marriage, staying faithful to one's spouse, and using condoms. The key message was "Zero Grazing", which instructed people to avoid casual sex. More complicated messages about risky behaviour and safer sex were not spread until later, when there had already begun to be a decline in HIV figures.
The irony is that your passage is actually in contradiction to the argument you were trying to present. This isn't an "abstinence-only" project. The "ABC" approach, I believe, is fairly balanced in its approach: mentioning that, yes, abstinence is the only 100% way to prevent sexually transmitted HIV, but if you do have sex, do it responsibly.

"Abstinence-only" approaches, like those done by religious groups in the U.S., will only mention condoms or other forms of birth control negatively and spread lies like saying that half of all gay teenagers have HIV. I think that's what most of us here are opposed to; not the "ABC" approach.

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Old 06-29-2005, 10:16 PM   #52
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Maybe they should just lace food shipments with libido suppressants.
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Old 06-29-2005, 10:22 PM   #53
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Maybe they should just lace food shipments with libido suppressants.
Like Graham crackers and corn flakes?

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Old 06-30-2005, 03:38 AM   #54
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Originally posted by Saracene
My other question is, how well can the various NGOs ensure that what they give to the poor doesn't get taken away by those in charge, in the countries where they don't really wield any real political power? And how effectively can they deal with the corruption going on smaller levels? People tend to talk about corruption in clear-cut terms of, a) leaders/upper class and b) people, as if they are some sort of different species. When in reality corruption touches people on all levels of society.
Good questions. I think NGOs can only ensure it up to a certain level. If there´s just a civil war going on and rebel groups are plundering the families, this way of distributing the money might not be the safest. Somehow, there should be some political stability before of starting the rebuild; its ineffective to build houses that may get destroyed by soldiers.

But if it is local African NGOs, they will have some influence on the people of the region. Corruption works on all levels, true, but tell me, how can family X, Y or Z in the above example corrupt someone? The money they get covers basic needs, and they can´t buy weapons with it to kill their own people.

I also don´t have an answer to every question, but it seems logical to me that if the money is distributed in the way I described, the majority of people who get it will have a possibility for a huge positive change.
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Old 06-30-2005, 03:56 AM   #55
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Judging by the abuse that most welfare sytems in the developed world recieve from just handing out money to the poor I really don't think that doing the same thing in the third world will transform them all into productive capitalists or even see long term investments for quality of life (give a man a fish versus teach a man to fish), how the hell can they even start a business when the legal protections of property ownership are poor and the beurocratic delays and restrictions for conducting business are very large.

Target the governments for reform, try to bring investment in with favourable policies, reform agricultural policies to prevent the dangerous mass famine situations, encourage political freedoms and free press. Still allow for aid but don't just throw it down the drain of handouts to strongmen leaders. Fostering a civil society will surely fill the massive gaps left by government intervention in poor nations.

There is a place for aid, it can help people and prevent disaster, it also has downsides that can only be adressed through reforms.
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Old 06-30-2005, 06:04 AM   #56
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Judging by the abuse that most welfare sytems in the developed world recieve from just handing out money to the poor I really don't think that doing the same thing in the third world will transform them all into productive capitalists or even see long term investments for quality of life (give a man a fish versus teach a man to fish), how the hell can they even start a business when the legal protections of property ownership are poor and the beurocratic delays and restrictions for conducting business are very large.

Target the governments for reform, try to bring investment in with favourable policies, reform agricultural policies to prevent the dangerous mass famine situations, encourage political freedoms and free press. Still allow for aid but don't just throw it down the drain of handouts to strongmen leaders. Fostering a civil society will surely fill the massive gaps left by government intervention in poor nations.
I agree with reforming agricultural policies etc., but judging from what I´ve studied, foreign investments without further insurance that it benefits the poor often fails. Contrary to that, many small initiatives work out. All the policies you mentioned will not be enough if there are not enough hospitals, no good sanitary conditions, spreading diseases, trade barriers for African export etc. Apart from that, without self-empowerment of the civil society, the country will continue to be exploited. So I guess both things have to go hand in hand.

Also, some countries have good unis and educated students. Give them a chance to organize help projects under supervision of international organizations where they grew up.
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Old 06-30-2005, 06:53 AM   #57
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You're probably always going to have a certain amount of corruption. You're dealing with human beings. It's all over. The thing to do is to make sure that the aid reaches the right people.
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