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Old 06-29-2005, 02:42 PM   #31
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


But no. And you know it very well. Tell me a better english expression for what I wanted to say. I warned you not to hijack this thread.

Now don´t put on my nerves and admit you were off-topic. Shouldn´t be such a problem for you, or is it?
Dunno...is it...sorry about your nerves.....In your opinion off topic...in mine....right on.
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Old 06-29-2005, 02:59 PM   #32
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I guess it's true that Bush has done more about this than any other president, and while I think more should be done, he certainly has that going for him. What does piss me off (and I have every right to point that out no matter what Bono says) is the the money is not being efficiently spent. Abstinence programs are completely useless and I think everybody should know that by now. Giving priority to programs and companies not because of their merits but just because they're faith-based or from the US is extremely irresponsible and in my opinion utterly disgraceful, and frankly, I'm surprised the guy gets away with it that easily.
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Old 06-29-2005, 03:02 PM   #33
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Abstinence programs are completely useless
This is a bit of an overstatement. And perhaps it isn't as effective in your culture, but it may be in another culture.
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Old 06-29-2005, 03:03 PM   #34
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have abstinence programs proven to be effective anywhere?
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Old 06-29-2005, 03:07 PM   #35
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Originally posted by nathan1977


I'm sorry, your problem with money going to Christian organizations is...?


that they're using fedal dollars for programs that, not always but sometimes, have an evangelical undertone. remember that mentoring-in-prison program he talked about in the State of the Union address in 2002? just who's values are these people going to be imparting to prisoners?

that is absolutely 100% fine to do. just not with federal money.
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Old 06-29-2005, 03:10 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by dandy
have abstinence programs proven to be effective anywhere?
If they'd been effective there would not have been a need for that faith-based initiative act (or whatever it's called) because the NGO's that have been working there for a long time would have implemented it years ago.

Same goes for these US' companies. make sure you're good at what you do and you'll get the assignment.
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Old 06-29-2005, 03:13 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by dandy
have abstinence programs proven to be effective anywhere?
Didn't work at my church 2 of the girls in my high school class that signed up and made a vow were pregnant by 20.
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Old 06-29-2005, 03:29 PM   #38
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I am not opposed to abstinance programs...

I am opposed to them as being the only option presented to people.

The reality is there are cultural issues in play in Africa. Abstinance alone is not necessarily the most productive way.

However, as someone mentioned in another thread...the President owes it to his constituencey to have policy that are consistent with the people's will.

If as President he feels that he has to represent the people's wishes, I do not fault him.

What I do fault him for is not even attempting to educate the public on the options, and maybe having the intestinal fortitude to make an unpopular choice with his base, and try to educate the base about why he went against them. He is not going to be able to run again, so I would think that he is able to take some chances.
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Old 06-29-2005, 03:32 PM   #39
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
I am not opposed to abstinance programs...

I am opposed to them as being the only option presented to people.
Just to clarify; when I'm talking about abstinence progarms I mean abstinence-only programs. I figured programs dealing with birth-control would go under a different name.
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Old 06-29-2005, 03:39 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
If as President he feels that he has to represent the people's wishes, I do not fault him.

What I do fault him for is not even attempting to educate the public on the options, and maybe having the intestinal fortitude to make an unpopular choice with his base, and try to educate the base about why he went against them. He is not going to be able to run again, so I would think that he is able to take some chances.
I don't believe for one second Bush is not 100% in agreement with abstinence-only programs. Anyway, we've seen this guy's ability to build support for something as ambiguous as the war in Iraq and I think also a number of other things so we know he could do it or at least give it a try.

Besides, considering his latest approval ratings, if Bush was genuinly concerned about the people's wishes he'd resign.
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Old 06-29-2005, 05:55 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by dandy
have abstinence programs proven to be effective anywhere?
Uganda, for one.
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Old 06-29-2005, 06:05 PM   #42
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Uganda, for one.
Could you post a link to info please...I am genuinely curious.
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Old 06-29-2005, 06:06 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Uganda, for one.
That's a joke right?

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2005...a10380_txt.htm

http://www.aegis.com/news/re/2005/RE050250.html

I could go on...these were just the first two that popped up in a yahoo search.
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:15 PM   #44
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


That's a joke right?
No. The following is from avert.org., the first link I got when I typed in "Uganda AIDS statistics." I've done other research that corroborates this, and have had friends stationed there through various organizations. You tell me; save the snide sarcasm for someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. It seems pretty clear that Uganda started with Abstinence education -- other programs came into play once HIV prevalence began to decline.

The rest of the article is here: http://www.avert.org/aidsuganda.htm

Why was Uganda's response so effective?
The approach used in Uganda has since been named the ABC approach - first, encouraging sexual Abstinence until marriage; secondly, advising those who are sexually active to Be faithful to a single partner or to reduce their number of partners; and finally, especially if you have more than one sexual partner, always use a Condom. A number of factors helped to encourage people to take up these strategies.

Communication
It seems that the message about HIV and AIDS has been effectively communicated to a diverse population by the government and by word of mouth. Ugandan people have themselves to thank, in part, for the reduction in the HIV prevalence rate. Much of the prevention work that has been done in Uganda has occurred at grass-roots level, with a multitude of tiny organisations educating their peers, mainly made up of people who are themselves HIV+. There was considerable effort made towards breaking down the stigma associated with AIDS, and frank and honest discussion of sexual subjects that had previously been taboo was encouraged. There is a high level of AIDS-awareness amongst people generally.

Community action
Very early in the course of the epidemic, the government recruited the Ugandan people to help themselves in the fight against HIV/AIDS. One of the first community-based organisations to be formed was TASO, the AIDS Support Organization founded in 1987, a time when there was still a great deal of stigmatisation of people with HIV.

When it was first started, the organisation 'met informally in each other's homes or offices to provide mutual psychological and social support. Cohesion among these individuals was strengthened by the fact that they were either directly infected with HIV or implicitly affected because their very close familial associates were infected'.25 TASO now provides emotional and medical support to people who are HIV positive and their families. It also works with other smaller organisations to educate the public about discrimination and about the dangers of HIV/AIDS.

Fear
A Cambridge University study in 1995 showed that 91.5% of Ugandan men and 86.4% of women knew someone who was HIV positive, and that word of mouth was the method by which most people were informed about HIV prevention. This indicates that one of the main reasons for people's behaviour change was their alarm about the risks and the extent of the epidemic. Many villages are experiencing several deaths each month, houses stand empty, and grandparents are looking after their orphaned grandchildren. Put simply, people are more likely to avoid risky behaviour if they know people who have died of AIDS-related illnesses.

Simple messages
In the early stages of the epidemic, the government responded swiftly, giving out simple messages about abstaining from sex until marriage, staying faithful to one's spouse, and using condoms. The key message was "Zero Grazing", which instructed people to avoid casual sex. More complicated messages about risky behaviour and safer sex were not spread until later, when there had already begun to be a decline in HIV figures.

Political openness
Since 1986, when Uganda's health Minister announced that there was HIV in the country, there has always been political openness and honesty about the epidemic, the risks, and how they might best be avoided. Also in this year, the President toured the country, telling people that it was their patriotic duty to avoid contact with HIV. This was a brave approach, as many politicians are reluctant to talk openly about sexual issues, but the openness paid off. The president encouraged input from numerous government ministries, NGOs and faith-based organisations. He relaxed controls on the media and a diversity of prevention messages - including 'zero-grazing' - spread through Uganda's churches, schools and villages. This frank and honest discussion of the causes of HIV infection seems to have been a very important factor behind the changes in people's behaviour that allowed prevalence levels to decline.

This contrasts sharply with countries like South Africa, which have lacked this political leadership in the fight against the epidemic. Uganda's entire population was mobilised in the fight against HIV and were made aware of the consequences that risky behaviour could have for their country. It is largely due to the Ugandan people that the epidemic appears to have been so well addressed.
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:19 PM   #45
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Absitnence only and condoms still fail to prevent non-sexual transfer, clean needles, general hygene and education are key.
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