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Old 06-27-2005, 02:49 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Irvine511



but you didn't answer my question: which is worse, enabling drug use or enabling AIDS? if we give people clean needles, we enable drug use, but we slow down the spread of AIDS. if we don't give people drug use, we don't enable their destructive habits, but AIDS continues to be spread via needles at about the same rate as it is now (and, as i said, the #1 way to get AIDS in the West is via injections).

do we let drug users destroy themselves, and bring others down with them?
By not giving a drug user clean needles, we're not enabling AIDS. We tell them not to do it, we tell `em why. If they don't listen or get help, that's their responsibility. They are the ones causing the disease; they are the ones enabling the disease.

On the other hand, if I saw a drug abuser lying in th street and I walked over and said "Oh, I wish you wouldn't do drugs; they're bad. But here's a clean needle because I know you're a loser who can't stop", my actions are sending the message that I condone drug abuse, depsite what my lips might say. I am promoting drug abuse.

But hey, as long as it stops the risk of AIDS, right? Pay no mind to the fact that drug abuse has many more disastrous effects than just AIDS, and that prolonged drug abuse will bring him a premature death anyway. When his heart kicks out at the age of 52, it will give me great comfort to say "I didn't help him stop using drugs, but at least I gave him needles and he didn't get AIDS".
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Old 06-27-2005, 02:49 PM   #32
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Originally posted by popsadie
Look, I'm not advocating abdication of social responsiblity. I do think that safety nets are important...not everyone is born with equal resources. However, I do think that American society has a bit of a 'victim' complex. We have labeled seemingly every struggle as a disease or disorder and sometimes I wonder if our society doesn't over do it.
Personally, I believe that individual actions arise from a combination of circumstances and personal beliefs. On one hand I think that we, as a society, should work at creating a society that levels the educational and monetary resources. One the other hand, I believe that basing expectations of a person's behavior primarily on their background disrespects the power that choice and beliefs play in their life.
to this post, particularly the part about the victim complex .

Angela
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Old 06-27-2005, 03:07 PM   #33
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


By not giving a drug user clean needles, we're not enabling AIDS. We tell them not to do it, we tell `em why. If they don't listen or get help, that's their responsibility. They are the ones causing the disease; they are the ones enabling the disease.

On the other hand, if I saw a drug abuser lying in th street and I walked over and said "Oh, I wish you wouldn't do drugs; they're bad. But here's a clean needle because I know you're a loser who can't stop", my actions are sending the message that I condone drug abuse, depsite what my lips might say. I am promoting drug abuse.

But hey, as long as it stops the risk of AIDS, right? Pay no mind to the fact that drug abuse has many more disastrous effects than just AIDS, and that prolonged drug abuse will bring him a premature death anyway. When his heart kicks out at the age of 52, it will give me great comfort to say "I didn't help him stop using drugs, but at least I gave him needles and he didn't get AIDS".


in Russia, HIV through drug use is epidemic. it is how the diease is primarily spread in that country, and this is already a society where the average life expectancy for a man is now about 60 years old i believe.

it's not just drug addicts who die -- often the people they have sex with, including married people, become infected with HIV as well. if a needle exchange program were to prevent, say, 10 infections of non-drug users, would it then be worth it?
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:11 PM   #34
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I am so sick of the SHITE that is slung in this forum about Bush.

Some of you I swear must be aroused as you are typing. You must have needed a viagra last night after Bono said such nice things about him.
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:15 PM   #35
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I think it unrealistic to think that you can stop the spread of AIDS without clean needles.

I say deal with the addiction 2nd...the health crisis 1st.
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:22 PM   #36
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I say deal with the addiction 2nd...the health crisis 1st.
.

Also, yeah, Bono did give some credit to Bush last night...if he did indeed do some good things for the AIDS thing, then I say good for him . Hopefully he'll continue to do more.

But then again, my problems with the administration have tended to be more with a lot of the people around Bush, and not so much Bush himself (although on the issues where he has brought up his own views, I tend to disagree with him), as I don't think he's the one making a lot of the decisions regarding things. I think Cheney and Rumsfeld and them have more power right now than he does.

But anywho, back to the topic at hand.

Angela
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:25 PM   #37
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
I think it unrealistic to think that you can stop the spread of AIDS without clean needles.

I say deal with the addiction 2nd...the health crisis 1st.
So, after you have established the practice of giving them needles, how do you then have any credibility when you try to help them with the addiction?

The chance that people will die prematurely due to dangerous drug addiction is greater than the chance that they will contract AIDS from a dirty needle.

Please, please, please...if I go blind and start walking toward the edge of a cliff, please don't throw a pillow on the ground below; I would prefer it if you would stop me from walking off the cliff instead. Sure, if I land on the pillow, it might cushion one part of my body, but the rest will be smashed to pieces and I'll die anyway.
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:25 PM   #38
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
I think it unrealistic to think that you can stop the spread of AIDS without clean needles.

I say deal with the addiction 2nd...the health crisis 1st.
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:30 PM   #39
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So, after you have established the practice of giving them needles, how do you then have any credibility when you try to help them with the addiction?

If you give a homeless person food and shelter does that mean you stop helping them look for a job? Do you lose credibility with them?
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:32 PM   #40
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


So, after you have established the practice of giving them needles, how do you then have any credibility when you try to help them with the addiction?

The chance that people will die prematurely due to dangerous drug addiction is greater than the chance that they will contract AIDS from a dirty needle.

Please, please, please...if I go blind and start walking toward the edge of a cliff, please don't throw a pillow on the ground below; I would prefer it if you would stop me from walking off the cliff instead. Sure, if I land on the pillow, it might cushion one part of my body, but the rest will be smashed to pieces and I'll die anyway.
Totally honest here....

the spread of the disease is more important to me than someone addiction.

Two separate issues.

One is about the health of the public and fighting disease...

the other is about a personal addiction
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:39 PM   #41
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


If you give a homeless person food and shelter does that mean you stop helping them look for a job? Do you lose credibility with them?
No. Eating and shelter are two inalienable rights. Dangerous drug abuse is not; in fact, it is illegal.

By giving someone food and shelter, you are providing something necessary for them to sustain life, until they can get back on their feet again.

But can you imagine walking up to someone and saying "I don't want you to get AIDS, so I'll give you these clean needles. But then, I want you to stop using drugs"?
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:41 PM   #42
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Totally honest here....

the spread of the disease is more important to me than someone addiction.

Two separate issues.

One is about the health of the public and fighting disease...

the other is about a personal addiction
Drug addiction isn't simply a perosnal addiction. One person's drug addiction has far reaching effects on his family, his friends and society.
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:47 PM   #43
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No. Eating and shelter are two inalienable rights. Dangerous drug abuse is not; in fact, it is illegal.
Inalienable rights? Not quite, we wouldn't have homeless if that was the case.

Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

But can you imagine walking up to someone and saying "I don't want you to get AIDS, so I'll give you these clean needles. But then, I want you to stop using drugs"?
Actually yes I can. Addictions take time, but until they can kick it, I want them to be as healthy as they can.
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:48 PM   #44
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Drug addiction isn't simply a perosnal addiction. One person's drug addiction has far reaching effects on his family, his friends and society.
And AIDS has an even further reach...
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:49 PM   #45
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And AIDS has an even further reach...
thank you ....you said what I was thinking...
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