Bush-Moral Crusade (NY Times editorial)

[80sU2isBest]

but you didn't answer my question: which is worse, enabling drug use or enabling AIDS? if we give people clean needles, we enable drug use, but we slow down the spread of AIDS. if we don't give people drug use, we don't enable their destructive habits, but AIDS continues to be spread via needles at about the same rate as it is now (and, as i said, the #1 way to get AIDS in the West is via injections).

do we let drug users destroy themselves, and bring others down with them?

By not giving a drug user clean needles, we're not enabling AIDS. We tell them not to do it, we tell `em why. If they don't listen or get help, that's their responsibility. They are the ones causing the disease; they are the ones enabling the disease.

On the other hand, if I saw a drug abuser lying in th street and I walked over and said "Oh, I wish you wouldn't do drugs; they're bad. But here's a clean needle because I know you're a loser who can't stop", my actions are sending the message that I condone drug abuse, depsite what my lips might say. I am promoting drug abuse.

But hey, as long as it stops the risk of AIDS, right? Pay no mind to the fact that drug abuse has many more disastrous effects than just AIDS, and that prolonged drug abuse will bring him a premature death anyway. When his heart kicks out at the age of 52, it will give me great comfort to say "I didn't help him stop using drugs, but at least I gave him needles and he didn't get AIDS".

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Look, I'm not advocating abdication of social responsiblity. I do think that safety nets are important...not everyone is born with equal resources. However, I do think that American society has a bit of a 'victim' complex. We have labeled seemingly every struggle as a disease or disorder and sometimes I wonder if our society doesn't over do it.
Personally, I believe that individual actions arise from a combination of circumstances and personal beliefs. On one hand I think that we, as a society, should work at creating a society that levels the educational and monetary resources. One the other hand, I believe that basing expectations of a person's behavior primarily on their background disrespects the power that choice and beliefs play in their life.

to this post, particularly the part about the victim complex .

Angela

 

[Irvine511]

By not giving a drug user clean needles, we're not enabling AIDS. We tell them not to do it, we tell `em why. If they don't listen or get help, that's their responsibility. They are the ones causing the disease; they are the ones enabling the disease.

On the other hand, if I saw a drug abuser lying in th street and I walked over and said "Oh, I wish you wouldn't do drugs; they're bad. But here's a clean needle because I know you're a loser who can't stop", my actions are sending the message that I condone drug abuse, depsite what my lips might say. I am promoting drug abuse.

But hey, as long as it stops the risk of AIDS, right? Pay no mind to the fact that drug abuse has many more disastrous effects than just AIDS, and that prolonged drug abuse will bring him a premature death anyway. When his heart kicks out at the age of 52, it will give me great comfort to say "I didn't help him stop using drugs, but at least I gave him needles and he didn't get AIDS".

in Russia, HIV through drug use is epidemic. it is how the diease is primarily spread in that country, and this is already a society where the average life expectancy for a man is now about 60 years old i believe.

it's not just drug addicts who die -- often the people they have sex with, including married people, become infected with HIV as well. if a needle exchange program were to prevent, say, 10 infections of non-drug users, would it then be worth it?

 

[Dreadsox]

I am so sick of the SHITE that is slung in this forum about Bush.

Some of you I swear must be aroused as you are typing. You must have needed a viagra last night after Bono said such nice things about him.

 

[Dreadsox]

I think it unrealistic to think that you can stop the spread of AIDS without clean needles.

I say deal with the addiction 2nd...the health crisis 1st.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I say deal with the addiction 2nd...the health crisis 1st.

.

Also, yeah, Bono did give some credit to Bush last night...if he did indeed do some good things for the AIDS thing, then I say good for him . Hopefully he'll continue to do more.

But then again, my problems with the administration have tended to be more with a lot of the people around Bush, and not so much Bush himself (although on the issues where he has brought up his own views, I tend to disagree with him), as I don't think he's the one making a lot of the decisions regarding things. I think Cheney and Rumsfeld and them have more power right now than he does.

But anywho, back to the topic at hand.

Angela

 

[80sU2isBest]

I think it unrealistic to think that you can stop the spread of AIDS without clean needles.

I say deal with the addiction 2nd...the health crisis 1st.

So, after you have established the practice of giving them needles, how do you then have any credibility when you try to help them with the addiction?

The chance that people will die prematurely due to dangerous drug addiction is greater than the chance that they will contract AIDS from a dirty needle.

Please, please, please...if I go blind and start walking toward the edge of a cliff, please don't throw a pillow on the ground below; I would prefer it if you would stop me from walking off the cliff instead. Sure, if I land on the pillow, it might cushion one part of my body, but the rest will be smashed to pieces and I'll die anyway.

 

[BVS]

I think it unrealistic to think that you can stop the spread of AIDS without clean needles.

I say deal with the addiction 2nd...the health crisis 1st.

 

[BVS]

So, after you have established the practice of giving them needles, how do you then have any credibility when you try to help them with the addiction?

If you give a homeless person food and shelter does that mean you stop helping them look for a job? Do you lose credibility with them?

 

[Dreadsox]

So, after you have established the practice of giving them needles, how do you then have any credibility when you try to help them with the addiction?

The chance that people will die prematurely due to dangerous drug addiction is greater than the chance that they will contract AIDS from a dirty needle.

Please, please, please...if I go blind and start walking toward the edge of a cliff, please don't throw a pillow on the ground below; I would prefer it if you would stop me from walking off the cliff instead. Sure, if I land on the pillow, it might cushion one part of my body, but the rest will be smashed to pieces and I'll die anyway.

Totally honest here....

the spread of the disease is more important to me than someone addiction.

Two separate issues.

One is about the health of the public and fighting disease...

the other is about a personal addiction

 

[80sU2isBest]

If you give a homeless person food and shelter does that mean you stop helping them look for a job? Do you lose credibility with them?

No. Eating and shelter are two inalienable rights. Dangerous drug abuse is not; in fact, it is illegal.

By giving someone food and shelter, you are providing something necessary for them to sustain life, until they can get back on their feet again.

But can you imagine walking up to someone and saying "I don't want you to get AIDS, so I'll give you these clean needles. But then, I want you to stop using drugs"?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Totally honest here....

the spread of the disease is more important to me than someone addiction.

Two separate issues.

One is about the health of the public and fighting disease...

the other is about a personal addiction

Drug addiction isn't simply a perosnal addiction. One person's drug addiction has far reaching effects on his family, his friends and society.

 

[BVS]

No. Eating and shelter are two inalienable rights. Dangerous drug abuse is not; in fact, it is illegal.

Inalienable rights? Not quite, we wouldn't have homeless if that was the case.

But can you imagine walking up to someone and saying "I don't want you to get AIDS, so I'll give you these clean needles. But then, I want you to stop using drugs"?

Actually yes I can. Addictions take time, but until they can kick it, I want them to be as healthy as they can.

 

[BVS]

Drug addiction isn't simply a perosnal addiction. One person's drug addiction has far reaching effects on his family, his friends and society.

And AIDS has an even further reach...

 

[Dreadsox]

And AIDS has an even further reach...

thank you ....you said what I was thinking...

 

[echo0001]

I think it unrealistic to think that you can stop the spread of AIDS without clean needles.

I say deal with the addiction 2nd...the health crisis 1st.

Absolutely.

And...

There's been some talk here about drug addicts being responsible for the results of their own behavior.

How about the woman who contracts AIDS from a dirty needle, and passes it on to her unborn child--does the child deserve to live (very shortly) with the consequences of the mother's addiction?

And....

Yes, Bono said some nice things about Bush. But ....

The president is right to say they're doing a quarter of all aid to Africa. He has doubled, even tripled, if he follows through, aid to Africa.

..if he follows through. If. Cross your fingers.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Actually yes I can. Addictions take time, but until they can kick it, I want them to be as healthy as they can.

If you want them to be healthy, don't you think the best way to do that would be encouraging them in every way possible to quit shooting up, rather than giving them clean needles, which will only perpetuate their deadly habit?

The only thing giving them clean needles will do is decrease their chances of getting AIDS. They will still die premature deaths while their sleazebag dealers who got them hooked will live long lives to get other people hooked, because dealers usually don't use.

 

[Irvine511]

If you want them to be healthy, don't you think the best way to do that would be encouraging them in every way possible to quit shooting up, rather than giving them clean needles, which will only perpetuate their deadly habit?

The only thing giving them clean needles will do is decrease their chances of getting AIDS. They will still die premature deaths while their sleazebag dealers who got them hooked will live long lives to get other people hooked, because dealers usually don't use.

maybe if they had clean needles to begin with, they would not have contracted HIV and not have passed it along to spouses, girlfriends, people they rape, etc.

are you willing to support, with your votes and your tax dollars, drug rehabilitation programs? are you willing to start understanding drugs as a health problem and not as a law-and-order issue?

until we get to that point, as a society, and we continue to preach mantras of self-help and personal responsibility and tough love, then we're always going to have a problem.

sometimes, you need to give people a reason not to do drugs. it's in EVERYONE'S interest to not have people shooting up in public parks ... instead of tossing such riff-raff in jail, as if it were a crime issue, let's address the reasons why people turn to drugs in the first place.

heck, if i were a young man in Russia, i'd probably be on drugs as well. or at least some kind of alcoholic.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Hygene is also important, rates of HIV transmission are much greater when STD's and what not going around, the risk of transfer in penile-vaginal sex is a lot greater if there are leisions and bleeding where it can get into the blood.

Needles are the big thing as well, it doesn't matter what feel morally about drug use because at the end of the day not helping somebody exclusively because you have a moral opposition to their behaviour will not prevent their behaviour.

Interesting side-note the life expectancy for a man in Russia today is 61.95 which is lower than the life expectancy in Bangladesh for a man which is 62.08.

 

[anitram]

To me, this should have nothing to do with morals.

It is a bit like teaching only abstinence because you oppose anything else based on moral or religious grounds.

We need to be realistic about the world we live in, not the fantasy we'd like to live in. We have to comprehend fully what is going on out there on the streets, in the ditches in Africa, the rundown cities of Russia. The reality is people are massively dying. From an immunological perspective, HIV/AIDS is a disaster that we may never be able to properly curb. Additionally, immunosuppressed people are a breeding ground for a number of opportunistic pathogens which would otherwise be absent from the population at large. Therefore there is a double risk to non-infected people - not just AIDS itself, but various viral and bacterial strains. There are serious social implications, collapsing family structures and enormous costs to our medical infrastructure.

This is no time to live in la-la land. In a perfect world, nobody would shoot up. We do not live in a perfect world, we live in this one. And if you can't accept that as a reality, then I understand why millions continue to be doomed.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Needles are the big thing as well, it doesn't matter what feel morally about drug use because at the end of the day not helping somebody exclusively because you have a moral opposition to their behaviour will not prevent their behaviour.

My moral opposition to drug usage is not my basis for being against giving them needles. My moral opposition to helping them perputate the deadly behavior is.

 

[BVS]

If you want them to be healthy, don't you think the best way to do that would be encouraging them in every way possible to quit shooting up, rather than giving them clean needles, which will only perpetuate their deadly habit?

Yes and condoms promote sex...I forgot.

Seriously I'm not sure why you aren't getting this. You can encourage all you want but how long will it take to convince some they can? How many are going to quit cold turkey? I'll give you a liberal guess and I'd say 5%. So for those other 95% that are interested in quitting will still continue at least for a short time why would you want them to put themselves at risk even if they are about or on their way to recovery?

 

[80sU2isBest]

are you willing to support, with your votes and your tax dollars, drug rehabilitation programs? are you willing to start understanding drugs as a health problem and not as a law-and-order issue?

Yes, I am. That's a much better thing to do than give them needles.

until we get to that point, as a society, and we continue to preach mantras of self-help and personal responsibility and tough love, then we're always going to have a problem.

sometimes, you need to give people a reason not to do drugs. it's in EVERYONE'S interest to not have people shooting up in public parks ... instead of tossing such riff-raff in jail, as if it were a crime issue, let's address the reasons why people turn to drugs in the first place.

There are many reasons not to do drugs. Many people grow up in bad neighborhoods and with bad childhoods and don't do drugs.
Some of this "riff-raff" needs to be in jail; violent drug-related crimes are not rare.

However, education is key for many. Parents should have been responsible for that, but modern parenting has dropped the ball on tecahing the fundamentals, so it has fallen to the schools. Missions and shelters help the adults; they do a lot of good work.

 

[unosdostres14]

If you want them to be healthy, don't you think the best way to do that would be encouraging them in every way possible to quit shooting up, rather than giving them clean needles, which will only perpetuate their deadly habit?

Okay. You gotta realize that these people are ADDICTED to the drug. Their bodies cannot function unless that chemical is in their system. Not giving them needles and saying, "no no no...drugs are bad for you" does absolutely nothing to stop their addiction.

Now pretend you are a group of drug addicts and no government is providing you with clean needles. All of a sudden you all have a chemical imbalance and need to take some drugs. Do you really think that not having clean needles will stop them from sharing. They are gonna all share needles and use them over and over. I mean think of it this way. These people are drug addicts. They are putting extremely harmful substances in their bodies. Do you really think the lack of clean needles will help them stop using drugs?

No matter what happens, people will use drugs. It would take all the money in the world to give each and every person drug rehabilitation therapy in order to stop it. At least we can try to stop AIDS from spreading. Sure, people are reponsible for their own actions, but we should have the kindness to try to save their lives from a horrible disease.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Seriously I'm not sure why you aren't getting this..

And I seriously don't get why you don't understand that giving people needles further promotes drug usage and helps them stay in a destructive lifestlye that will more than likely kill them prematurely. The chances of that are greater than the chances of catching AIDS.

I seriously am not sure why you think feeding a destructive lifestyle like drug addiction helps in any way except decreasing the chances of contracting AIDS. It seems like that is all that people here are worried about. No one here pays any attention to the toll that drug abuse takes on a person. No one here seems to understand that drug addiction, which is perpuated by "needle gifts", kills people prematurely, and in many more ways than just AIDS.

You can encourage all you want but how long will it take to convince some they can? How many are going to quit cold turkey? I'll give you a liberal guess and I'd say 5%. So for those other 95% that are interested in quitting will still continue at least for a short time why would you want them to put themselves at risk even if they are about or on their way to recovery?

What? Give them needles while they are going through drug rehab steps, and then actually expecting them to be successful in resisting drugs? You've got to be kidding me.

 

[BVS]

And I seriously don't get why you don't understand that giving people needles further promotes drug usage and helps them stay in a destructive lifestlye that will more than likely kill them prematurely. The chances of that are greater than the chances of catching AIDS.

I seriously am not sure why you think feeding a destructive lifestyle like drug addiction helps in any way except decreasing the chances of contracting AIDS. It seems like that is all that people here are worried about. No one here pays any attention to the toll that drug abuse takes on a person. No one here seems to understand that drug addiction, which is perpuated by "needle gifts", kills people prematurely, and in many more ways than just AIDS.



What? Give them needles while they are going through drug rehab steps, and then actually expecting them to be successful in resisting drugs? You've got to be kidding me.

I'll put it this way, anything that saves more lives in the long run, I'm for.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

to Irvine's post, particularly the part about how we have to look at the problems that lead people to do drugs in the first place, and anitram's post, particularly the part about looking at things from the real world view, not our fantasy worlds.

The only people in drug-related situations that I would think would need to be in jail are those who are involved in drugs and who are also committing violent crimes, like murder, or who are building labs and that in neighborhoods where, with one false move, they can endanger a great deal of their neighbors' lives (that's what happened in my old town back in Nebraska-across the street from my house, it was discovered that a couple of guys were running a meth lab, and the police had to come in and raid it. Thankfully, nobody in the neighborhood got hurt, and I know for sure one of the guys was apprehended, don't know about the other one (they weren't there at the time of the raid, the one guy was found later on), but it could've gotten dangerous).

But those who aren't involved in that stuff and just shooting up on their own or something, they don't need jail, they need help. So if the only body that stuff's going into is the body of the smoker or the druggie, it's their choice. Do I like it? No, and I'll do whatever I can to help them and hope that they'll realize that this isn't healthy for them (but I'll help them in a way that won't make it seem like I'm getting all preachy on them, because all that does is turn them away and get even more irritated with me). But if someone really wants to do drugs, just like if they really want to smoke or really want to drink, or whatever else, they will do it. It's a sad choice, imho, but it's still theirs.

Angela