Bush-Moral Crusade (NY Times editorial) - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-27-2005, 01:21 PM   #16
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


Amusing considering Bush is an untreated alcoholic who will probably relapse any day now.
That's just ridiculous, fg. Untreated? He stopped drinking. Or is "finding the strength through God" somehow less effective than other "treatments"? My father stopped drinking through his faith in God.

And what leads you to the conclusion that he's going to "relapse any day now"? Please tell me where you bought your crystal ball.
__________________

__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 06-27-2005, 01:23 PM   #17
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
That's just ridiculous, fg. Untreated? He stopped drinking. Or is "finding the strength through God" somehow less effective than other "treatments"? My father stopped drinking through his faith in God.

And what leads you to the conclusion that he's going to "relapse any day now"? Please tell me where you bought your crystal ball.
Many experts in the area of addiction treatment consider Bush to exhibit all the classic signs of being a 'dry drunk' or untreated alcoholic.

And I don't believe Bush is genuinely a Christian, incidentally.

What leads me to the conclusion that he's going to relapse? The stress he is under and his guilty conscience.
__________________

__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-27-2005, 01:33 PM   #18
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


Many experts in the area of addiction treatment consider Bush to exhibit all the classic signs of being a 'dry drunk' or untreated alcoholic.

And I don't believe Bush is genuinely a Christian, incidentally.

What leads me to the conclusion that he's going to relapse? The stress he is under and his guilty conscience.
FG, have you ever considered going on tour with your mind-reading capabilities? I think you could make lots of money.

Already, I've learned some important things I didn't know.

Bush is not a Christian. He has a guilty conscience. He is about to crack and start drinking himself under the table again.

Keep it up, this kind of info is very valuable.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 06-27-2005, 01:38 PM   #19
Acrobat
 
popsadie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Norman, Oklahoma,USA
Posts: 457
Local Time: 08:33 PM
lol..I have to agree here with 80's here. I'm not Bush's biggest fan, but claiming he has 'dry alcholism' is ridiculous. I know alcoholism CAN be an addiction- but drinking isn't automatically a disease. I do think that all the labels society places on compulsive and addictive behaviors is somewhat ridiculous---it seems like everything is a 'disease'...which makes me wonder...what has happened to individual choices and personal responsibility....
__________________
popsadie is offline  
Old 06-27-2005, 01:40 PM   #20
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,687
Local Time: 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by popsadie
lol..I have to agree here with 80's here. I'm not Bush's biggest fan, but claiming he has 'dry alcholism' is ridiculous. I know alcoholism CAN be an addiction- but drinking isn't automatically a disease. I do think that all the labels society places on compulsive and addictive behaviors is somewhat ridiculous---it seems like everything is a 'disease'...which makes me wonder...what has happened to individual choices and personal responsibility....
Said by someone who's obviously never had to deal with it.
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 06-27-2005, 01:43 PM   #21
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by popsadie
lol..I have to agree here with 80's here. I'm not Bush's biggest fan, but claiming he has 'dry alcholism' is ridiculous. I know alcoholism CAN be an addiction- but drinking isn't automatically a disease.
Drinking alcohol, even to excess, is not a disease in itself, true, but Bush has admitted that for a long period in his life he could not remember a day he didn't drink.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-27-2005, 01:47 PM   #22
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
And I don't believe Bush is genuinely a Christian, incidentally.
Care to define how you determine who qualifies as a genine Christian?
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 06-27-2005, 01:49 PM   #23
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,495
Local Time: 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by popsadie
---it seems like everything is a 'disease'...which makes me wonder...what has happened to individual choices and personal responsibility....


i think this gets to a very interesting question: just how responsible are we for the choices we make? this goes for good things as well as bad things.

a quote i like is "so many people born on third base think they hit a triple." i know many people like this. i grew up in a somewhat idyllic town where everyone was educated, fed, etc. i have friends who went to Ivy League schools, have fancy jobs, and make a good amount of money. and then i hear them, firstly, pat themselves on the back for working so hard, and then turn around and grumble about the taxes they have to pay for services that they don't use (like public schools, for example). this strikes me as an abdication of personal responsibility. they were given everything, how could you *NOT* screw it up? don't walk around thinking you're so wonderful and so smart, because had you been born into different circumstance, things might not have worked out so well.

i think the idea of personal responsibility can be both delusional as well as a great way to absolve yourself of social responsibility. when i was in college, there was a very interesting art project that went on my senior year: huge pictures of starving children, drug addicts, the poorest of the poor, real examples of human failure were placed all along the library with the words "WHO'S RESPONSIBILITY IS IT?"

so i pose that question to everyone. are we all responsible for Russian drug addicts and Tanzanian prostitutes and the rich kid from San Diego who paralyzes himself when he crashes his dad's porsche? or are they all fully responsible for their situations?
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 06-27-2005, 01:50 PM   #24
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,495
Local Time: 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I'm not saying they deserve to die. But I am saying they are making a dangerous choice, so they are to blame. No one made them shoot up; not me, not the governement, no one. They choose to, knowing it's dangerous. Governments should not use their people's money to subsidize the dangerous habits/crimes of people.

When society says "I know shooting up is dangerous, but since I figure you're going to do it anway, I'm going to go give you needles to do it with", society has become an enabler. People never learn to stop dangerous habits when the people who are supposed to be helping them become enablers. If you had a friend who was a smoker, and you were against it, would you buy him a pack of cigarettes just because you figure "Oh well, he's going to do it anyway"? No, you wouldn't (I hope). You would encourage him to stop smoking, and if you had to get tough you would. Bush is making the right choice. He is choosing not to be an enabler.


what's worse? enabling drug abuse or enabling AIDS?
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 06-27-2005, 02:30 PM   #25
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




what's worse? enabling drug abuse or enabling AIDS?
I'd say the ones enabling AIDS are the ones shooting drugs into their veins.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 06-27-2005, 02:35 PM   #26
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,495
Local Time: 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I'd say the ones enabling AIDS are the ones shooting drugs into their veins.

but you didn't answer my question: which is worse, enabling drug use or enabling AIDS? if we give people clean needles, we enable drug use, but we slow down the spread of AIDS. if we don't give people drug use, we don't enable their destructive habits, but AIDS continues to be spread via needles at about the same rate as it is now (and, as i said, the #1 way to get AIDS in the West is via injections).

do we let drug users destroy themselves, and bring others down with them?
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 06-27-2005, 02:37 PM   #27
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

i think the idea of personal responsibility can be both delusional as well as a great way to absolve yourself of social responsibility. when i was in college, there was a very interesting art project that went on my senior year: huge pictures of starving children, drug addicts, the poorest of the poor, real examples of human failure were placed all along the library with the words "WHO'S RESPONSIBILITY IS IT?"

To place drug addicts in that same exhibit as the starving children is a disgrace. Children can't help if they're starving. They have no way to do anything about it. Drug addicts choose to do drugs; no matter what may have influenced them, ultimately it's their own responsibility. That's why I give money to organizations that feed hungry children, it helps then. No way I'm gonna give needles to a drug addict; it sends the message that to stop is hopeless, so they might as well continue killing themselves, because their lives are worthless. It's a defeatist attitude.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 06-27-2005, 02:40 PM   #28
Acrobat
 
popsadie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Norman, Oklahoma,USA
Posts: 457
Local Time: 08:33 PM
Look, I'm not advocating abdication of social responsiblity. I do think that safety nets are important...not everyone is born with equal resources. However, I do think that American society has a bit of a 'victim' complex. We have labeled seemingly every struggle as a disease or disorder and sometimes I wonder if our society doesn't over do it.
Personally, I believe that individual actions arise from a combination of circumstances and personal beliefs. On one hand I think that we, as a society, should work at creating a society that levels the educational and monetary resources. One the other hand, I believe that basing expectations of a person's behavior primarily on their background disrespects the power that choice and beliefs play in their life.
__________________
popsadie is offline  
Old 06-27-2005, 02:43 PM   #29
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,687
Local Time: 02:33 PM
or like some loony conservatives, we can blame the liberal media...
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 06-27-2005, 02:44 PM   #30
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,495
Local Time: 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


To place drug addicts in that same exhibit as the starving children is a disgrace. Children can't help if they're starving. They have no way to do anything about it. Drug addicts choose to do drugs; no matter what may have influenced them, ultimately it's their own responsibility. That's why I give money to organizations that feed hungry children, it helps then. No way I'm gonna give needles to a drug addict; it sends the message that to stop is hopeless, so they might as well continue killing themselves, because their lives are worthless. It's a defeatist attitude.


do you think anyone wants to be a drug addict? do you think anyone actively chooses to be a drug addict, or might it be a combination of circumstance? might they grow up under rather hopeless conditions where drug use starts as an escape and then spirals into something worse?

again, i'm not disagreeing with you, but i do think it's a very interesting question: do people who make bad choices deserve our support, compassion, sympathy, and even our charity?

or do we cut them off, make them an example of what not to do?

how far should our compassion extend?

my personal opinion is that no one should take too much credit for their decisions, the good ones and the bad ones. no one is every completely to blame, and no one is every totally innocent. i see a very complex, interconnected world where i have an attachment to the drug user in Moscow and the prostitute in Tanzania and the spoiled overweight princess who eats chocolate cake in her Beverly Hills mansion and wants to down a bottle of sleeping pills and a fifth of vodka.

my heart bleeds for them all. and i want to help them all.

but that's impossible, isn't it?

so what do we do?

what is our responsibility?
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com