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Old 07-05-2007, 04:59 PM   #316
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:22 PM   #317
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I'm really confused.

So some say it's "totally discusting", but since Clinton did it, it's fine.

Others say "any president would do the same thing, so who cares"

And one even gives the action a thumbs up...

So do any of you actually understand the issue?
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:30 PM   #318
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Originally posted by unico
How are those facts? Which part of Fitzgerald's statements are you basing that off of?

The real "witchhunt" is how Cheney outed Plame and endangered her family and our national security, all because Wilson decided to call the administration out on their flaws.
These are not facts. Cheney did not out Plame. A Cheney henchman did not out Plame. The special prosectuor knew who and chose not to indict. It was this man:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14533384/site/newsweek/
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/...age/index.html

I agree that the whole Libby situation is lousy and stinks to high heaven. If it was my choice he would have spent a few months in the slammer as he is a convicted felon. But conspiracy theories and cover-up theories are just that. They are not facts. No matter how many times they might be reguritated.
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:43 PM   #319
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bluer White


These are not facts. Cheney did not out Plame. A Cheney henchman did not out Plame. The special prosectuor knew who and chose not to indict. It was this man:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14533384/site/newsweek/
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/...age/index.html

I agree that the whole Libby situation is lousy and stinks to high heaven. If it was my choice he would have spent a few months in the slammer as he is a convicted felon. But conspiracy theories and cover-up theories are just that. They are not facts. No matter how many times they might be reguritated.
Here's what the White House has to say about Clinton's remarks:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- White House spokesman Tony Snow fired back at former President Bill Clinton after Clinton charged that the Bush administration believes the law is a "minor obstacle" in the "Scooter" Libby case.


The Clintons campaign at the Iowa State Fairgrounds in Des Moines on Monday.

"I don't know what Arkansan is for chutzpah, but this is a gigantic case of it," Snow told reporters in an off-camera briefing Wednesday.

Webster's New World dictionary defines chutzpah as "shameless audacity; imprudence; brass."

President Bush on Monday spared former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby from federal prison, commuting his 30-month sentence for perjury, obstruction of justice and lying to federal agents investigating the 2003 exposure of former CIA operative Valerie Plame Wilson.

Bush left a $250,000 fine and two-year probation intact, but he left the door open to a pardon, which would clear Libby's record.

"You've got to understand, this is consistent with (Bush administration) philosophy," Clinton said during an interview on Des Moines news-talk station WHO.

Bush administration officials, he said, "believe that they should be able to do what they want to do, and that the law is a minor obstacle." Watch Bill Clinton sound off on Bush's decision »

In an op-ed piece in USA Today on Wednesday, Snow defended Bush's action, charging that Clinton was "in a mad rush to push through pardons with dizzying haste -- 141 grants on Clinton's final day in office, part of 211 in the final nine weeks."

Don't miss
Clinton rips White House over Libby case


Analysis: Hypocrisy abounds on all sides of Libby case
Clinton's flurry of last-minute pardons issued as he left office in 2001 -- particularly his absolution of fugitive financier Marc Rich -- sparked largely partisan outrage. Critics alleged that the pardon of Rich was linked to contributions raised for Clinton's presidential library by Rich's ex-wife.

Libby's defenders have pointed to Democratic support for Clinton during that period to accuse critics of Bush's commutation order of hypocrisy.

Asked by a reporter if he was asserting that "two wrongs make a right," Snow said: "Do we feel we've done wrong? Do we feel we cut corners? The answer is no."

Snow also said the White House feels it is on safe legal ground in contending that Libby will serve two years of probation, despite questions now being raised by Judge Reggie Walton, who issued an order Tuesday suggesting Libby cannot serve any probation since he never served any prison time before the commutation.

"Strictly construed, the statute authorizing the imposition of supervised release indicates that such release should occur only after the defendant has already served a term of imprisonment," Walton wrote.

After first suggesting he wasn't sure, Snow said White House counsel Fred Fielding had "absolutely" checked on this question before the president signed off on the commutation.


"The White House did not make a misstep," he said. Despite the certainty expressed by Snow, he did add that there's some "gray area in the law."

Asked about the plan of House Judiciary Chairman John Conyers, D-Michigan, to probe the Libby commutation, Snow snapped that the congressman should "knock himself out," but also probe the slew of pardons granted at the end of the Clinton administration. E-mail to a friend
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:59 PM   #320
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It's all sleight of hand. Keep pointing attention to this hand while the other is letting criminals out AS WE SPEAK.

You hear that echo?
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Old 07-05-2007, 06:07 PM   #321
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"I don't know what Arkansan is for chutzpah, but this is a gigantic case of it," Snow told reporters in an off-camera briefing Wednesday.

So this is their big retort?


Remember they took office on the claim of
"Restoring honor and dignity to the Whitehouse".

And their reply is in effect "We doing the same thing they did".
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Old 07-05-2007, 06:26 PM   #322
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who is clinton to comment on this? honestly.....
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Old 07-05-2007, 06:30 PM   #323
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Well, none of us are as clean as a whistle so who cares, right?
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Old 07-05-2007, 06:48 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Well, none of us are as clean as a whistle so who cares, right?
John 8:7
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:02 PM   #325
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Originally posted by diamond


John 8:7
That post was in reference to one of his previous posts.

But it's interesting you post that passage.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:12 PM   #326
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Originally posted by diamond


Here's what the White House has to say about Clinton's remarks:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- White House spokesman Tony Snow fired back at former President Bill Clinton after Clinton charged that the Bush administration believes the law is a "minor obstacle" in the "Scooter" Libby case.


The Clintons campaign at the Iowa State Fairgrounds in Des Moines on Monday.

"I don't know what Arkansan is for chutzpah, but this is a gigantic case of it," Snow told reporters in an off-camera briefing Wednesday.

Webster's New World dictionary defines chutzpah as "shameless audacity; imprudence; brass."

Tony Snow is Jewish? Who knew
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:13 PM   #327
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Originally posted by struckpx
who is clinton to comment on this? honestly.....
Last I checked he was a former president.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:52 PM   #328
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Originally posted by Bluer White


These are not facts. Cheney did not out Plame. A Cheney henchman did not out Plame. The special prosectuor knew who and chose not to indict. It was this man:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14533384/site/newsweek/
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/...age/index.html

I agree that the whole Libby situation is lousy and stinks to high heaven. If it was my choice he would have spent a few months in the slammer as he is a convicted felon. But conspiracy theories and cover-up theories are just that. They are not facts. No matter how many times they might be reguritated.
could someone please post the msn article here? everytime i try to open it it shuts down safari.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:56 PM   #329
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MSNBC.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Armitage's Role in Plame Case
A book coauthored by NEWSWEEK's Michael Isikoff details Richard Armitage's central role in the Valerie Plame leak.
By Michael Isikoff
Newsweek
Sept. 4, 2006 issue - In the early morning of Oct. 1, 2003, Secretary of State Colin Powell received an urgent phone call from his No. 2 at the State Department. Richard Armitage was clearly agitated. As recounted in a new book, "Hubris: The Inside Story of Spin, Scandal, and the Selling of the Iraq War," Armitage had been at home reading the newspaper and had come across a column by journalist Robert Novak. Months earlier, Novak had caused a huge stir when he revealed that Valerie Plame, wife of Iraq-war critic Joseph Wilson, was a CIA officer. Ever since, Washington had been trying to find out who leaked the information to Novak. The columnist himself had kept quiet. But now, in a second column, Novak provided a tantalizing clue: his primary source, he wrote, was a "senior administration official" who was "not a partisan gunslinger." Armitage was shaken. After reading the column, he knew immediately who the leaker was. On the phone with Powell that morning, Armitage was "in deep distress," says a source directly familiar with the conversation who asked not to be identified because of legal sensitivities. "I'm sure he's talking about me."

Armitage's admission led to a flurry of anxious phone calls and meetings that day at the State Department. (Days earlier, the Justice Department had launched a criminal investigation into the Plame leak after the CIA informed officials there that she was an undercover officer.) Within hours, William Howard Taft IV, the State Department's legal adviser, notified a senior Justice official that Armitage had information relevant to the case. The next day, a team of FBI agents and Justice prosecutors investigating the leak questioned the deputy secretary. Armitage acknowledged that he had passed along to Novak information contained in a classified State Department memo: that Wilson's wife worked on weapons-of-mass-destruction issues at the CIA. (The memo made no reference to her undercover status.) Armitage had met with Novak in his State Department office on July 8, 2003—just days before Novak published his first piece identifying Plame. Powell, Armitage and Taft, the only three officials at the State Department who knew the story, never breathed a word of it publicly and Armitage's role remained secret.

Armitage, a well-known gossip who loves to dish and receive juicy tidbits about Washington characters, apparently hadn't thought through the possible implications of telling Novak about Plame's identity. "I'm afraid I may be the guy that caused this whole thing," he later told Carl Ford Jr., State's intelligence chief. Ford says Armitage admitted to him that he had "slipped up" and told Novak more than he should have. "He was basically beside himself that he was the guy that f---ed up. My sense from Rich is that it was just chitchat," Ford recalls in "Hubris," to be published next week by Crown and co-written by the author of this article and David Corn, Washington editor of The Nation magazine.


As it turned out, Novak wasn't the only person Armitage talked to about Plame. Washington Post reporter Bob Woodward has also said he was told of Plame's identity in June 2003. Woodward did not respond to requests for comment for this article, but, as late as last week, he referred reporters to his comments in November 2005 that he learned of her identity in a "casual and offhand" conversation with an administration official he declined to identify. According to three government officials, a lawyer familiar with the case and an Armitage confidant, all of whom would not be named discussing these details, Armitage told Woodward about Plame three weeks before talking to Novak. Armitage has consistently refused to discuss the case; through an assistant last week he declined to comment for this story. Novak would say only: "I don't discuss my sources until they reveal themselves."


Armitage's central role as the primary source on Plame is detailed for the first time in "Hubris," which recounts the leak case and the inside battles at the CIA and White House in the run-up to the war. The disclosures about Armitage, gleaned from interviews with colleagues, friends and lawyers directly involved in the case, underscore one of the ironies of the Plame investigation: that the initial leak, seized on by administration critics as evidence of how far the White House was willing to go to smear an opponent, came from a man who had no apparent intention of harming anyone.

Indeed, Armitage was a member of the administration's small moderate wing. Along with his boss and good friend, Powell, he had deep misgivings about President George W. Bush's march to war. A barrel-chested Vietnam vet who had volunteered for combat, Armitage at times expressed disdain for Dick Cheney and other administration war hawks who had never served in the military. Armitage routinely returned from White House meetings shaking his head at the armchair warriors. "One day," says Powell's former chief of staff Larry Wilkerson, "we were walking into his office and Rich turned to me and said, 'Larry, these guys never heard a bullet go by their ears in anger ... None of them ever served. They're a bunch of jerks'."

But officials at the White House also told reporters about Wilson's wife in an effort to discredit Wilson for his public attacks on Bush's handling of Iraq intelligence. Karl Rove confirmed to Novak that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA, and days later offered the same information to Time reporter Matt Cooper. The inquiry into the case led to the indictment of Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice. Armitage himself was aggressively investigated by special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, but was never charged. Fitzgerald found no evidence that Armitage knew of Plame's covert CIA status when he talked to Novak and Woodward. The decision to go to the FBI that panicky October afternoon also may have helped Armitage. Powell, Armitage and Taft were aware of the perils of a cover-up—all three had lived through the Iran-contra scandal at the Defense Department in the late 1980s.


Taft, the State Department lawyer, also felt obligated to inform White House counsel Alberto Gonzales. But Powell and his aides feared the White House would then leak that Armitage had been Novak's source—possibly to embarrass State Department officials who had been unenthusiastic about Bush's Iraq policy. So Taft told Gonzales the bare minimum: that the State Department had passed some information about the case to Justice. He didn't mention Armitage. Taft asked if Gonzales wanted to know the details. The president's lawyer, playing the case by the book, said no, and Taft told him nothing more. Armitage's role thus remained that rarest of Washington phenomena: a hot secret that never leaked.

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14533384...wsweek/page/0/


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© 2007 MSNBC.com
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Old 07-05-2007, 08:04 PM   #330
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Okay Bluer White, I read the CNN article that you showed. Note that that article is a year old now. There have been developments since. If you click on the link on the left, CNN has a much more detailed timeline of the events that took place throughout this investigation.

For example, this one:

The New York Times, citing lawyers close to the case, reports that notes in the hands of a federal prosecutor indicate that Libby first heard Valerie Plame's name from Cheney in a conversation on June 12, 2003, a month before the Bob Novak column made it public knowledge. This would seem to conflict with Libby's grand jury testimony that he had not heard of Plame until he was asked about her by reporters.

And of course, in 2007 when Fitzgerald himself said that this investigation has left a cloud over the white house. Libby is refusing to answer direct questions to protect Cheney's involvement. No Cheney didn't himself out Plame. Cheney ORDERED it.

www.findlaw.com has some great articles too of people well versed in legal studies examining this case. Last time you posted her you said Plame was not covert, which is untrue. I'd suggest checking some of the findlaw articles instead of year-old CNN reports. Only because I think those would be more accurate. Yes the article you shared is important, however the context of this investigation is even more important.
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