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Old 07-04-2007, 09:24 PM   #211
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Originally posted by struckpx


Come on:

Any president would have done this if they were put in the same situation, regardless of political party affiliation.
You're right, any president would do that in the same situation, because to get to that same situation s/he would already have to be corrupt enough to knowingly allow (or in the Veep's case, order) a subordinate to commit a cowardly and traitorous act like outing a CIA agent for petty political reasons, and then have him mock the justice system by refusing to answer pertinent questions on the case, despite the fact that the president himself said that anyone who was involved with the leaking of Valerie Plame's name would be fired.

He sure has a funny way of holding people accountable.

As to your man Rudy, he's showing some real spine on this issue:

“After evaluating the facts, the president came to a reasonable decision and I believe the decision was correct.” — former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani.

Because obviously, when a sentence is excessive, the correct thing to do is eliminate the sentence altogether, rather than reduce it.
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:27 PM   #212
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Originally posted by Diemen


You're right, any president would do that in the same situation, because to get to that same situation s/he would already have to be corrupt enough to knowingly allow (or in the Veep's case, order) a subordinate to commit a cowardly and traitorous act like outing a CIA agent for petty political reasons, and then have him mock the justice system by refusing to answer pertinent questions on the case, despite the fact that the president himself said that anyone who was involved with the leaking of Valerie Plame's name would be held accountable.

He sure has a funny way of holding people accountable.
I actually believe that Bush was left out on a lot of this.
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:29 PM   #213
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Which actually makes it worse then, because at some point he had to realize that things were going on behind his back, and yet he doesn't have the spine to take a moral stand and hold those people accountable.
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:32 PM   #214
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Originally posted by Diemen
Which actually makes it worse then, because at some point he had to realize that things were going on behind his back, and yet he doesn't have the spine to take a moral stand and hold those people accountable.
i agree. i am somewhat of a bush and rice supporter, but i have never liked his other cabinet choosings, including cheney
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:33 PM   #215
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
All arguments about Clinton or immigration are 100%, completly irrelevant.

Some people have forgotten the issue. Allow me to sum up:

The issue is whether President Bush is covering up anything by COMMUTING Scooter Libby. This means Libby does not have to serve the 2.5 year prison sentence which the judge gave him, which is in the law for perjury. Prison terms are required for perjury. Also, he retains his fifth amendment rights, unlike if he was pardoned. There is much suspicion of him covering the tracks of VP Cheney.

Discuss that.
thank you.
it is refreshing to know that at least somebody is reading my posts.
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:43 PM   #216
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well, re-reading your comment there unico, he retains his rights, but he also has to pay punishment for much of the crimes. so, its a 50-50, he is not getting off the hook, and he is not going to jail. so it works out to be partisan. conservatives saw a man who had served for 30+ years in government and our country w/ dignity, liberals saw someone who broke the law and deserved no mercy, regardless of his deeds to society.

so, in the end it saves taxpayer money, and keeps the country overall calm. its kind of being way overblown. there are other people in the case who should be investigated, not libby. he is the middle man. he is the kid at school selling the dime sack instead of the dealer. get what i am saying?
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:46 PM   #217
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Originally posted by struckpx

so, in the end it saves taxpayer money,
Let's dispense with prison terms for all perjurers then.
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:47 PM   #218
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Exactly, but by commuting his sentence, Bush has ensured that Libby cannot provide any evidence about those people further up the line, and in that sense it is a very big deal.
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:51 PM   #219
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Originally posted by anitram


Let's dispense with prison terms for all perjurers then.
there's a difference between someone who knows US intelligence, and one of us. it could ultimately come back to harm us if we treat him badly.

regarding the other post, that is not necessarily true. bush can always authorize an internal review on cheney. while he is unlikely to do this, i really do believe that bush has been left out of a lot of this garbage, instead rumsfeld, powell, and cheney were the main ones involved.

w/ his current trend of going against his party, it might very well happen. plus, condoleeza rice is not a fan of cheney as well.
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:56 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally posted by struckpx
well, re-reading your comment there unico, he retains his rights, but he also has to pay punishment for much of the crimes. so, its a 50-50, he is not getting off the hook, and he is not going to jail.
You honestly believe he is going to pay that $250,000 fine? Fred Thompson and Mary Matalin are included in Libby's defense fund. They are raising the money for this fine. Trust me, Libby himself will NOT be paying that money.

And even given what you're writing, I honestly don't understand your connection to make this a partisan issue. It is not partisan, it is corruption. Libby is lying to cover up Cheney's dirty hands, and Bush is making sure that it stays that way by keeping him out of jail and without a pardon.

I think by reducing this to a partisan issue you are:
1) generalizing people and
B) ignoring the bigger, and scarier picture here.

our administration has dirty hands. and right now it is so transparent. i'm still surprised by the people that can't see that. it is NOTHING to do with party affiliation. this is about a corrupt administration that is getting away with doing whatever they please and doing things contrary to international and domestic law.
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:18 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally posted by struckpx


Come on:

Any president would have done this if they were put in the same situation, regardless of political party affiliation.

It is still on appeal, therefore we can not debate the finality of his tenure in jail.
1. Diemen covered it already, but you have to be very corrupt, very out of the loop, or very stupid to get into this situation.

2. I never brought up political party affiliation in my post. The issue has only been brought up by those attempting to bring Clinton into the argument.
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:20 PM   #222
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Originally posted by unico


You honestly believe he is going to pay that $250,000 fine? Fred Thompson and Mary Matalin are included in Libby's defense fund. They are raising the money for this fine. Trust me, Libby himself will NOT be paying that money.

And even given what you're writing, I honestly don't understand your connection to make this a partisan issue. It is not partisan, it is corruption. Libby is lying to cover up Cheney's dirty hands, and Bush is making sure that it stays that way by keeping him out of jail and without a pardon.

I think by reducing this to a partisan issue you are:
1) generalizing people and
B) ignoring the bigger, and scarier picture here.

our administration has dirty hands. and right now it is so transparent. i'm still surprised by the people that can't see that. it is NOTHING to do with party affiliation. this is about a corrupt administration that is getting away with doing whatever they please and doing things contrary to international and domestic law.
well, that is besides the point. i don't care who pays it, he is still being sentenced to pay a fine, is he not? that is punishment. in the real world, if anyone could get money to pay fines, we would do the same.
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:22 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally posted by struckpx


well, that is besides the point. i don't care who pays it, he is still being sentenced to pay a fine, is he not? that is punishment. in the real world, if anyone could get money to pay fines, we would do the same.
it is not beside the point. it is a BIG point. didn't you just say he has to pay punishment for his crimes? he isn't going to pay a cent! that is a mere microcosm of all the corruption and most importantly cover upsurrounding this.
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:22 PM   #224
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Originally posted by struckpx
well, re-reading your comment there unico, he retains his rights, but he also has to pay punishment for much of the crimes. so, its a 50-50, he is not getting off the hook, and he is not going to jail. so it works out to be partisan. conservatives saw a man who had served for 30+ years in government and our country w/ dignity, liberals saw someone who broke the law and deserved no mercy, regardless of his deeds to society.

so, in the end it saves taxpayer money, and keeps the country overall calm. its kind of being way overblown. there are other people in the case who should be investigated, not libby. he is the middle man. he is the kid at school selling the dime sack instead of the dealer. get what i am saying?
It has nothing to do with liberal vs. conservative. I don't know why this seems to be an issue with you.

The bottom line is this: in any perjury case, prison terms are mandatory. He is getting off the hook because he is not serving mandatory sentencing for his crime. Why is that? Because the president is giving him a free pass out.

And to say it saves taxpayers money is ridiculous, because it opens the gate for anyone to be let off the hook "to save taxpayers money."

And do you know why no one else can be investigated in this case? Because Libby was commuted by the President and doesn't have to speak! If this was a pardon, then he must talk and we get to investigate them. That's why this is a big deal. It's not as much about Libby, it's that it's a clear cover up, and Bush lets Libby off because it's not his fault. He took orders.
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:23 PM   #225
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Originally posted by phillyfan26


It has nothing to do with liberal vs. conservative. I don't know why this seems to be an issue with you.

The bottom line is this: in any perjury case, prison terms are mandatory. He is getting off the hook because he is not serving mandatory sentencing for his crime. Why is that? Because the president is giving him a free pass out.

And to say it saves taxpayers money is ridiculous, because it opens the gate for anyone to be let off the hook "to save taxpayers money."

And do you know why no one else can be investigated in this case? Because Libby was commuted by the President and doesn't have to speak! If this was a pardon, then he must talk and we get to investigate them. That's why this is a big deal. It's not as much about Libby, it's that it's a clear cover up, and Bush lets Libby off because it's not his fault. He took orders.
political prejudice has everything to do w/ it.
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