Bush commutes Libby's prison sentence

[phillyfan26]

Kaching.
Kaching.

Best post in the thread, altho we could lose the swearing.

dbs

Funny that you should drop in after ignoring most posts directed towards you.

 

[BVS]

Just because I don't want to slog through 18 pages of nonsense doesn't mean that I don't know what's going on.

But you're all too tied up on the Daily Show and the Colbert Report to be the least bit objective about it. And the mere fact that you refuse to even acknowledge the fact that Clinton did the same if not worse just shows that you don't give a shit about the issue; you're just bitching about ideology. Bringing up Clinton turns the bulk of you into hypocrits and derails your hard on for Bush (ha). This is important stuff, and you're (general you're) giving it the same weight as the Rosie O'Donnel/Trump feud on the view. If you were all the least bit objective, and cared most about the true issue, which is equal justice, then you wouldn't be so fucking WORRIED about Clinton being brought up.

Speaking of arrogance.

You obviously haven't read this thread, and you don't know what's going on. Who here's denied Clinton's actions? Read... it will do you well.

 

[redhotswami]

Arrogance. I quoted directly from the first page. Just because I don't want to slog through 18 pages of nonsense doesn't mean that I don't know what's going on.

The issue is equal justice. The fact that Bush helped out a lackey, that isn't the issue. That's been going on since probably the first day of the formation of the first government in the history of man kind.

The coverup isn't the issue either. That's been resolved via the trial and verdict.

The issue IS equal justice. This was a miscarriage of justice and it's damn maddening. I don't care at this point what Rove did, he was convicted of breaking the law and sentenced, and to get out of it, he should have to go through due process just like everyone else.

But you're all too tied up on the Daily Show and the Colbert Report to be the least bit objective about it. And the mere fact that you refuse to even acknowledge the fact that Clinton did the same if not worse just shows that you don't give a shit about the issue; you're just bitching about ideology. Bringing up Clinton turns the bulk of you into hypocrits and derails your hard on for Bush (ha). This is important stuff, and you're (general you're) giving it the same weight as the Rosie O'Donnel/Trump feud on the view. If you were all the least bit objective, and cared most about the true issue, which is equal justice, then you wouldn't be so fucking WORRIED about Clinton being brought up.

1) Obviously that was not directed at you. I clearly said people who don't read the first page. Throughout this entire thread there have been people who have hopped in without even reading the first page, and talking about stuff unrelated to the topic. If someone posts a thread about a topic, the least they could do is read the article. It was frustrating those of us who wanted to have REAL discussion about this. If this doesn't apply to you then move on.

2) Your arrogance has caused you to make assumptions about me. For one, I don't watch TV.

3) Since you didn't bother to read any of my posts, you don't really have much of anything to go on regarding my "objectivity", or according to you, my lackthereof. I'm objective enough to read the whole thread. Now who is being arrogant? Did I say anything about Clinton not being corrupt? No. But your "objectivity" wouldn't know otherwise.

The cover up IS the issue. Fitzgerald himself said that Libby is lying to keep Cheney's involvement in this whole issue nebulous. Clinton did not do the same. Clinton did not order the outing of a CIA agent to a) endanger the Plame/Wilson family and b) threaten our national security just for the mere sake of covering up his administration's corruption.

Instead of making personal attacks against me, how about YOU try to be more objective or at least read up on the situation at hand. www.findlaw.com is a great place to start

 

[redhotswami]

.

 

[BVS]

Funny that you should drop in after ignoring most posts directed towards you.

Welcome to his world...

 

[phillyfan26]

As seems to be necessary, here's a reminder to everyone of what this thread is about:

1. Not Clinton.
2. A government cover-up.
3. Commutation as opposed to pardoning.

Thanks and have a nice day.

 

[diamond]

The Left have their talking points nailed down pretty well in this thread

 

[phillyfan26]

The Left have their talking points nailed down pretty well in this thread

I'm not liberal, so I don't see your point.

Why would a cover-up story of the Bush administration have anything to with the pardons of President Clinton? The whole reason for people's anger here is because with a commutation, Libby does not have to speak on the issue, and thus, those who told him to leak the information (Cheney) don't get into any trouble.

 

[redhotswami]

i really think that labeling this as a partisan issue is excluding consideration of some very important aspects regarding this topic.

 

[BVS]

It's not a partisan issue.

It's like this thread has an echo, but the echo comes back less intelligent the longer the thread gets.

 

[deep]

Libby just tossed in a $250,0000. cashiers check, for that fine. ouch!

Concerned American Patriots for Justice donated around $5,000,000. to his fund. Sweet.

 

[redhotswami]

diamond, do you acknowledge that Libby is lyring to protect Cheney's role in this? Do you acknowledge what Fitzgerald has said based on the information he has gathered to this point?

 

[JessicaAnn]

And the mere fact that you refuse to even acknowledge the fact that Clinton did the same if not worse just shows that you don't give a shit about the issue

I will just repost what I posted earlier. As GW Bush's presidency is not over yet, I will refrain from commenting on what he is doing. However, Clinton's rate of pardoning/granding clemency is not very much worse than G HW Bush. Regan pardoned/granted clemency to nearly twice as many people as Clinton.

If you would take the time to "slog though" the "nonsense" as you call it, perhaps you could make intelligent arguments, as many people here have done.

Please see http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/actions_administration.htm

Sure, if you look at just the raw numbers, of course Clinton granted more pardons.

However, if you look a bit deeper, and compare the volume of requests for pardons or clemency and the percentage of pardons granted (which is a far more accurate way to compare the presidents), Clinton and Bush aren’t all that far apart. Regan’s percentage is nearly double that of Clinton’s!

Ronald Regan
Petitions Received:
Pardon 2099
Clemency 1305
TOTAL 3404

Petitions Granted
Pardon 393
Clemency 13
Remission of Fine 0
TOTAL 406

Petitions Denied
Pardon 969
Clemency 318
TOTAL 1287

Petitions Closed Without Action
Pardon 612
Clemency 905
Total 1517

Percentage of Petitions Granted: 11.93%


George HW Bush
Petitions Received:
Pardon 731
Clemency 735
TOTAL 1466

Petitions Granted
Pardon 74
Clemency 3
Remission of Fine 0
TOTAL 77

Petitions Denied
Pardon 676
Clemency 429
TOTAL 1105

Petitions Closed Without Action
Pardon 220
Clemency 296
Total 516

Percentage of Petitions Granted: 5.25%


Bill Clinton
Petitions Received:
Pardon 2001
Clemency 5488
TOTAL 7489

Petitions Granted
Pardon 396
Clemency 61
Remission of Fine 2
TOTAL

Petitions Denied
Pardon 655
Clemency 2387
TOTAL 3042

Petitions Closed Without Action
Pardon 353
Clemency 1159
Total 1512

Percentage of Petitions Granted 6.13%

 

[deep]

 

[redhotswami]

Libby just tossed in a $250,0000. cashiers check, for that fine. ouch!

Concerned American Patriots for Justice donated around $5,000,000. to his fund. Sweet.

like I said in my previous post, Thompson, Matalin, etc. were all pushing hard to raise funds for Libby's defense fund.

Miller is the only person in this entire case who has served jail time. And noone has been specifically charged with the actual leak...yet.

And now that Libby has been commuted, he may not even have to serve the 2 years of supervised probation.

 

[diamond]

it was a witch hunt, GW recognize that fact and didn't let Scooter off scot fre.

Once you ppl freely admit those facts you'll start feeling better about yourselves and stop being so miserable.

I doubt that some of you can, you prefer being angry and miserable over sane and productive.

It's that simple.

dbs

 

[phillyfan26]

diamond, do you acknowledge that Libby is lyring to protect Cheney's role in this? Do you acknowledge what Fitzgerald has said based on the information he has gathered to this point?

But unico, that would require him to stay on topic. And the only way to defend Bush on this issue is to stray from the topic.

 

[phillyfan26]

it was a witch hunt, GW recognize that fact and didn't let Scooter off scot fre.

Once you ppl freely admit those facts you'll start feeling better about yourselves and stop being so miserable.

I doubt that some of you can, you prefer being angry and miserable over sane and productive.

It's that simple.

dbs

Well, I want to thank you for your first on topic post of the thread.

However, to reduce the government blatantly covering up a leak of classified information and the resulting investigation to a "witch hunt" is ridiculous.

 

[redhotswami]

it was a witch hunt, GW recognize that fact and didn't let Scooter off scot fre.

Once you ppl freely admit those facts you'll start feeling better about yourselves and stop being so miserable.

I doubt that some of you can, you prefer being angry and miserable over sane and productive.

It's that simple.

dbs

How are those facts? Which part of Fitzgerald's statements are you basing that off of?

The real "witchhunt" is how Cheney outed Plame and endangered her family and our national security, all because Wilson decided to call the administration out on their flaws.

 

[BVS]

it was a witch hunt,

You may want to look up what that term actually means...

 

[redhotswami]

Okay, I'm getting tired of the personal attacks, and irrelevant issues brought up in here. I want a REAL discussion. Granted, I haven't been continously staying on this case from day one, when Plame was first outed. However, given what I've read so far, here is the UNOFFICIAL timeline of events.

Jan 2003 - President Bush said that Saddam Hussein obtained uranium from Africa

June 2003 - C. Rice lies on Russert's "Meet the Press" about who "knew" this information

July 2003 - Ambassador Wilson (Plame's husband) writes an op-ed in NYT calling out the administration

Then, as we all know, Plame's name is leaked. The current trial is investigating whether this administration ordered the leak to retaliate against Wilson and to prevent other people from coming forward as he did and calling them out. Bush admin. welcomed the case, and said that whoever was found responsible for leaking Plame would be fired.

Libby has lied in response to the key question here, who ordered the leak. Fitzgerald said that a cloud rests over Cheney. In what I've read, it is clear that Cheney is involved, and Libby is lying to protect that. I wouldn't be surprised if Bush is implicated too. But clearly Cheney. If the special prosecutor in this case says, based on his information gathered, that it is clear Cheney is involved, then why wouldn't that be plausible?

Bush orders Libby's commutation, thus A) allowing him to maintain his 5th amendment rights and B) allowing him to get away with, and continue to lie to protect their involvement. Thompson & Matalin have been pushing hard to raise money for his defense fund. Libby himself has not had to pay the $250,000 out of pocket.
Okay. There you go. It is a rough sketch, but I have laid it out. Hopefully we can move forward with this. If ANYBODY has anything to offer to support/critique this timeline, I am all ears. This is what I've read thus far. I'm up for a meaningful discussion with valid points rather than us spinning in circles with attacks and irrelevant topics.

diamond, you said "the left" have laid out their points for argument. THESE RIGHT HERE are my points.

 

[deep]

You can add to that list

President Bush saying he welcomed the investigation.

And that anyone associated with it would be held accountable.


There are too many Republicans in and out of office that will tell you this Administration has been a complete failure on keeping his 2000 election pledge.

"I will restore honor and dignity to the Whitehouse."

with that pledge he set the standard.

With Gonzales and the Justice Department, and this episode he has done about the opposite.

He has set the lowest standard.

 

[redhotswami]

You can add to that list

President Bush saying he welcomed the investigation.

And that anyone associated with it would be held accountable.


There are too many Republicans in and out of office that will tell you this Administration has been a complete failure on keeping his 2000 election pledge.

"I will restore honor and dignity to the Whitehouse."

with that pledge he set the standard.

With Gonzales and the Justice Department, and this episode he has done about the opposite.

He has set the lowest standard.

Very true. Bush's father said that outing a CIA officer is a crime years ago. Bush said that whoever is responsible for leaking Plame would be fired.

ETA: I added it

 

[phillyfan26]

Very true. Bush's father said that outing a CIA officer is a crime years ago. Bush said that whoever is responsible for leaking Plame would be fired.

Of course, with a commutation, there's no speaking from Libby and no one can be identified.

Funny how transparent these things are...

 

[redhotswami]

Of course, with a commutation, there's no speaking from Libby and no one can be identified.

Funny how transparent these things are...

yeah...whoops...completely forgot to add the commute. i did just now though

 

[Lila64]

Okay, I'm getting tired of the personal attacks, and irrelevant issues brought up in here. I want a REAL discussion. Granted, I haven't been continously staying on this case from day one, when Plame was first outed. However, given what I've read so far, here is the UNOFFICIAL timeline of events.

Jan 2003 - President Bush said that Saddam Hussein obtained uranium from Africa

June 2003 - C. Rice lies on Russert's "Meet the Press" about who "knew" this information

July 2003 - Ambassador Wilson (Plame's husband) writes an op-ed in NYT calling out the administration

Then, as we all know, Plame's name is leaked. The current trial is investigating whether this administration ordered the leak to retaliate against Wilson and to prevent other people from coming forward as he did and calling them out. Bush admin. welcomed the case, and said that whoever was found responsible for leaking Plame would be fired.

Libby has lied in response to the key question here, who ordered the leak. Fitzgerald said that a cloud rests over Cheney. In what I've read, it is clear that Cheney is involved, and Libby is lying to protect that. I wouldn't be surprised if Bush is implicated too. But clearly Cheney. If the special prosecutor in this case says, based on his information gathered, that it is clear Cheney is involved, then why wouldn't that be plausible?

Bush orders Libby's commutation, thus A) allowing him to maintain his 5th amendment rights and B) allowing him to get away with, and continue to lie to protect their involvement. Thompson & Matalin have been pushing hard to raise money for his defense fund. Libby himself has not had to pay the $250,000 out of pocket.
Okay. There you go. It is a rough sketch, but I have laid it out. Hopefully we can move forward with this. If ANYBODY has anything to offer to support/critique this timeline, I am all ears. This is what I've read thus far. I'm up for a meaningful discussion with valid points rather than us spinning in circles with attacks and irrelevant topics.

diamond, you said "the left" have laid out their points for argument. THESE RIGHT HERE are my points.

Well said. And with the adds by deep & phillyfan

Why are some people so blind to just read this without seeing "left" and "right"?

 

[redhotswami]

thanks
i don't know, i really don't. i suppose it is easier to resort to personal attacks, generalizations, and irrelevant topics than to respond to these things that i have been posting since i started posting in this thread. for the most part, i've just neatly organized my claims into one post, and added deep & phillyfan's contributions.

and if anybody is curious about my sources, as i stated before, you can find all this on www.findlaw.com, a non-partisan web site for legal news.

 

[phillyfan26]

Why are some people so blind to just read this without seeing "left" and "right"?

I guess saying "It's just liberals bashing Bush" is a classier way of saying "Nuh-uh, you're wrong."

Neither has any evidence, backing, or relevance to the debate.

The funny thing is that I'm not even liberal!

 

[Snowlock]

altho we could lose the swearing.

dbs

Agreed and my apologies. I'm just so angry at this bunch and at the issue in general; but it's no excuse I should have filtered a lot better.

 

[anitram]

When all of you who are apparently "angry and miserable" quote diamond, those of us who have the good sense of having him on our Ignore lists unfortunately have to read the drivel. Like the aformentioned "you prefer to be angry and miserable" piece of dreck that he produced upthread.