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Old 04-29-2002, 05:48 PM   #91
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Originally posted by STING2:
Salome,
Well if you support Israels right to defend itself against terrorism, then you should support the military action in Jenin that uprooted one of the largest terror cells on the West Bank.
I do support military actions when negotations don't work, when it's clear what the results are that you trying to achieve and when chances are that you will achieve your goals with the actions taken
so I do support Israel in taking military actions to prevent further terrorism
here military actions ended up in acts of terrorism themselves
I do not support that

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Old 04-29-2002, 06:08 PM   #92
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STING2;

You argue exceedingly well sir, and your arguments are not only cojent but fair as well as balanced. And you almost convince. However, I still don't see why Britain should commit itself when the rest of Europe aren't really bothering.

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Old 04-29-2002, 06:14 PM   #93
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But what acts of terrorism were committed by Israels military incursion? Even the most liberal of human rights groups have now admitted that a massacre did NOT happen in Jenin. But the investigation is still continuing.
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Old 04-29-2002, 06:35 PM   #94
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Britain has an interest in the stability of the Middle East because of that regions vast reserves of oil and the effect instability and war, or the sudden loss of supply of that oil, would have a dramatic effect on the british economy and way of life. Saddam Hussain has shown that he is a threat to the region by launching wars against Iran, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia. His willfull destruction of the environment, slaughter of civilians, and pursuit of Weapons of Mass destruction, that could cause mass loss of life in the UK, through direct use by Iraq or indirectly through a terrorist group, in total constitute a threat to the United Kingdoms interest that cannot be ignored.
Certainly, the threat to other European countries is just as great. But most other European countries do not have the power projection capabilities that the British military has. France is the only possible exception. The French unfortunately believe that Saddam is a dove that can be engaged.
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Old 04-30-2002, 02:35 AM   #95
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Salome, I generally like your answers... There short and simple.... and convey a simple and genuine answer.

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I do believe that though relgion is a factor within this conflict... The two main issues are the geographic problems and lack of good leaders..... I wish Palestine could rebuild itself, and have a good leader with it.... I wish Israel fount a less corrupt leader....
I wish we could have peace on earth...
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Sting, do u think Sharon is a man of peace...?
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Old 04-30-2002, 09:43 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2:
But what acts of terrorism were committed by Israels military incursion? Even the most liberal of human rights groups have now admitted that a massacre did NOT happen in Jenin. But the investigation is still continuing.
What I've heard and read a massacre (thankfully) did not occur. But human rights groups do say that there are cases of gross misconduct by the Israelis. Until now 52 dead bodies are found, but of those 52 dead almost half are not people Israel suspected of terrorism, but children, old women, etc. There are claims that Israelis willfully destroyed houses while knowing that people were inside. And Palestinians were used by Israelis as a human shield while the Israelis fired from behind them, claims supported by Israeli reserves (as broadcasted on CNN yesterday).

BTW, here's a link with a little bit of information about the situation in Jenin (and the two main reasons Israel is blocking the fact-finding mission there): http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...nin/index.html

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Old 04-30-2002, 10:51 AM   #97
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I'm surprised that the religious right didn't jump up in arms about that because some believe that's a pseudonym for 'the Antichrist' (ref. the book of Daniel).

'Man of peace' Dan 11:17

Or did they? I'm not in America - so I'm interested if there were any noises about this.

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Old 04-30-2002, 04:30 PM   #98
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I am not sure if Sharon is a man of peace or not simply because I am uncertain of the true role Sharon played in Beirut in 1982. Evidence to directly link him to the slaughter there has not surfaced.

One thing you have to remember is that Sharon is not a dictator. He is the elected leader of the only true democracy in the region. Foreign policy is not formed by Sharon alone, but everyone in his cabinet. While I'm unsure if Sharon is a man of peace himself, his government is a government of peace.

The investigation so far does not point to a massacre, but there continue to be unresolved claims of IDF misconduct. So far only 21 civilians have been found dead which seems to be amazing(except for the civilians families and friends) considering the intense fighting that occured. Just as there was no massacre of 3,000 civilians as the Palestinians claimed weeks ago, what ever claims of IDF misconduct will have to be proven. Right now there are only claims, just like there was claims of 3,000 dead civilians a couple of weeks ago. The use of civilians as human shields is not Israely army policy, so if it is found to be true, then those soldiers who engaged in such actions should be punished. I would hope that the Israely military will consider using active military units rather than reservist the next time it engages such a sensitive terrorist or military target.
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Old 04-30-2002, 06:44 PM   #99
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from The Boston Globe...

Claims of massacre go unsupported by Palestinian fighters

By Charles A. Radin, Globe Staff and Dan Ephron, Globe Correspondent, 4/29/2002

JENIN, West Bank - Palestinian Authority allegations that a large-scale massacre of civilians was committed by Israeli troops during their invasion of the refugee camp here appear to be crumbling under the weight of eyewitness accounts from Palestinian fighters who participated in the battle and camp residents who remained in their homes until the final hours of the fighting.

In interviews yesterday with teenage fighters, a leader of Islamic Jihad, an elderly man whose home was at the center of the fighting, and other Palestinian residents, all of whom were in the camp during the battle, none reported seeing large numbers of civilians killed. All said they were allowed to surrender or evacuate when they were ready to do so, though some reported being mistreated while in Israeli detention.

Palestinian Authority leaders have asserted that more than 500 people, mostly women and children, were killed in the camp and that many of the dead were buried by Israeli forces in mass graves. Investigators for Amnesty International said that Israel failed to provide safe passage from the camp to noncombatants.

The Palestinian allegations led to the creation of a UN fact-finding team for Jenin, but Israel yesterday barred the team from arriving amid allegations of an anti-Israel bias.

Israel says that those Palestinians killed in the Jenin battle were almost all fighters, that none were buried in mass graves, and that ample chance was given to fighters to surrender and for civilians to leave. It initially estimated the death toll at 100 to 200, and has since revised that toll downward to 50.

Meanwhile, a British military adviser to Amnesty, Reserve Major David Holley, was quoted yesterday by Reuters news service as dismissing the Palestinian allegations of a massacre and predicting that no evidence would be found to substantiate them.

Jamal al-Shati, who was appointed by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat to document events at the camp, said last night that 52 deaths have been documented, including those of three women and five children under 14. He asserts that the Israelis secretly removed bodies from the battleground.

Munir Arsam, 15, a member of Islamic Jihad, said that during the siege, which began April 3 and ended around April 11, he did scouting work for older militants, threw homemade pipe bombs, and helped with ambushes of Israeli troops. He said he was one of 50 boys, divided into groups of 10 by militant leaders, who were assigned these tasks.

In contrast with allegations by some Palestinians and Amnesty investigators, Arsam said women and children were able to evacuate the camp before the climactic battle began. Even at the height of the struggle, fighters were able to put down their weapons and surrender, he said, though he also said, as did the Amnesty investigators, that those who surrendered were beaten and otherwise mistreated while in detention.

Arsam said he knew of five fighters in houses bulldozed by the Israelis, at least two of whom were wounded and screaming for help when the bulldozers came. ''The men in the tanks and bulldozers could not hear them,'' he said.

He said he saw Sheik Ri'ad Abu Abd, 57, of Tulkarem, one of the Palestinian heroes of the battle, wounded with a bullet in the leg near the end of the fighting, and asked him if he wanted to surrender.

''He said `No, I want to die, I want to fight and die,' and a while later that house was bulldozed,'' Arsam said. On the last day of the battle, with no ammunition left, Arsam buried the weapon he had acquired during the fighting and surrendered.

''They destroyed all the houses in Hawashin,'' he said, describing a now-demolished neighborhood in the camp. ''I was in the last house, and they called out, `Surrender or we will fire at you.' There were only two of us, so we left, and they destroyed the house.'' He said the Israeli soldiers held him for four days, frequently beating and kicking him to make him confess to membership in Hamas or Islamic Jihad, then released him.

Asked if he felt any massacre had occurred, Arsam said: ''We killed them and they killed us, but we were victorious.''

Abdel Rahman Sa'adi, 14, another Islamic Jihad grenade-thrower, said he was one of a group of 11 adults and seven young men who surrendered upon Israeli demand. He said they were confined in a courtyard near the camp to which the Israeli troops brought dozens of other men and women.

''They told all the small kids to just leave, and they let all the women go after they checked their bags,'' said Sa'adi, who has braces and was wearing a baseball cap. ''None of them were kept for questioning.''

''Of course the Palestinians won'' this battle, he said, because ''they did not shake our morale. This was a massacre of the Jews, not of us.''

Prompted by bystanders, he revised his statement. ''I think there was a massacre here - maybe 100 people,'' he said.

Khalid Mohammed Taleb, 70, lay on a concrete slab from his ruined house, shaded by a makeshift plastic awning, watching with a blank expression as people clambered over the rubble yesterday and buried mines and grenades occasionally exploded.

''I come every day,'' he said. ''I lived here 50 years.''

Taleb and his extended family of 11 people stayed in the camp rather than evacuating because ''we thought it would be like the first invasion, they would make an incursion and leave. I used to say I wouldn't leave even if they buried me in this house, but I saw the bulldozers killing people and I left.''

That was around midnight, on the day before the battle ended.

Taleb said he raised a white flag and walked at the front of a group of 20 people - his own family and those of two neighbors. The destruction of his house and the surrounding buildings occurred after the civilians left, he said, when only fighters remained.

He said several times that no civilians were killed, but after repeated questioning from reporters and bystanders, he said: ''Well, maybe one or two. It was a big battle.'' Was it a massacre? ''Perhaps,'' he said. ''Both sides lost.''

An Islamic Jihad leader, who insisted on anonymity, said he was wounded as the battle drew to a close, and crawled 300 yards to where other fighters were gathered.

''There were 35 of us, and they were bringing down houses on us, so we surrendered,'' he said. Israeli soldiers ''threw me on the garbage near the hospital at noon'' on the last day of the battle, ''and I remained there until 1 a.m.'' The Israelis did not attempt to confine or question him, and he returned to the camp Saturday, he said.

All the fighters said that the Israelis failed to wipe out the militant leadership in the camp, which long has been known as an Islamic Jihad stronghold.

''Of course we are reorganizing,'' said the Islamic Jihad leader, who walked with a cane and was thronged by comrades near the wreckage. ''I don't know what is the plan, what is the strategy, but people are full of hatred.''

Arsam, the 15-year-old fighter, said leaders of Islamic Jihad and other factions were taking new groups of youngsters to a hill near Jenin every day for military training, teaching them to fire automatic weapons and to make bombs.

A spokesman for the Israeli army asserted, meanwhile, that Palestinians were moving bodies of people not killed in the Jenin fighting into graveyards around the camp ''to score points with the UN committee due to arrive to investigate the happenings in the Jenin refugee camp.'' The military said this charge was based on information received from Israeli intelligence agencies, and refused to elaborate.


This story ran on page A1 of the Boston Globe on 4/29/2002.
Copyright 2002 Globe Newspaper Company.
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Old 04-30-2002, 07:01 PM   #100
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You know, I have been very silent on this thread and anything like it for a while now. Reason why? I really don't like either side. Let them blow each other up into oblivion. I'd be inclined to have a bit more sympathy for Arafat and his cause, had it not been for the fact that it's not like they're the only Islamic nation around that area. Why aren't the "good" nations of Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt taking care of their own people? Of course, at the same token, what kind of silly thought is it to resurrect a long dead nation? When is enough enough? It is just as silly to me as the thought of slave reparations 140 years after the fact. Multiply that by 10 and you have the ridiculousness of resurrecting Israel. I think its due time to resurrect an old American Indian nation, and make Los Angeles the capital. Sounds silly, right? Such a nice little gift we received from religious zealots on all sides...

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Old 04-30-2002, 07:44 PM   #101
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Melon,
I think you might fail to understand some of the history that is behind this area. Of course I could be wrong. But let me explain some things. There has been a Jewish community, however small on a continuas basis in Palistine since 1900 BC. Since the time of Christ the area has been controled by Romans, Christians, then Muslims, Then Turks, then Egyptians, and then in 1517 the Ottoman Empire which controled the region until 1918 and its defeat by British forces and Muslim and Jewish rebels in the region. For the first time in over a thousand years, the people in the region had an oportunity for Independence from any foreign power. From 1918 to 1947, the british tried to resolve the question of statehood for this region. Again there had never been an Independent State in this region in over a thousand years. The arabs rejected the proposal by the British for Arab and Jewish sectors. They then handed the problem of the area over to the UN. The UN proposed in 1947, an Arab State and a Jewish state. The Arabs rejected it but the Jews accepted and formed the independent State of Israel. The next day after their independnce they were attacked by 5 Arab states. The population in all of Palistine and Israel at this time was 600,000 Jews, and 1,300,000 Muslims.
The bottom line is that Jews living in this area have just as much right to a state as the muslims do to have theirs. A state or states suddenly had to be created because Empires that had controlled the region for over a thousand years no longer existed. A state or states had to be created. Why would muslim claims to have a state for the first time in over a thousand years, defeat any Jewish attempt to have a state there as well?
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Old 04-30-2002, 07:58 PM   #102
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As I posted earlier. This is crystal clear:

Quote:
Originally posted by Ballistic Tweed:
Ten Tips on How to Be an Arafat Apologist:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/columnis...ov04-11-02.htm

Twenty facts about Israel and the Middle East:

http://www.empoweramerica.org/stories/storyReader$515

Palestinian victims:

http://www.empoweramerica.org/stories/storyReader$511
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Old 05-02-2002, 02:30 AM   #103
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Sting, bottom line is, many wish that these to states could live together side by side in peace.... This could possibly happen, if and only if, their were no corrupt leaders in the picture.... ARafat and Sharon are two corrupt leaders who shouldn't be leading the states....... Sting, i don't see how u think sharon is somewhat a man of peace? Thats kind of twisted.
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Old 05-02-2002, 05:28 AM   #104
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Quote:
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Sting, bottom line is, many wish that these to states could live together side by side in peace.... This could possibly happen, if and only if, their were no corrupt leaders in the picture.... ARafat and Sharon are two corrupt leaders who shouldn't be leading the states....... Sting, i don't see how u think sharon is somewhat a man of peace? Thats kind of twisted.
I agree. THis much is certain, if there is any peace to be had in the Middle East, it will be without Sharon and Arafat.

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Old 05-02-2002, 01:19 PM   #105
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Amna,
If you think Sharon is Satan, please provide the indisputable evidence to prove it. I said I was uncertain if Sharon was a man of peace or not. But his government is a government of Peace. Engaging in defensive military action does not mean your not peaceful. Those that do what is militarily neccessary for security and to prevent war I find to be more peaceful than pacifist who allow themselves and others to be taken advantage of and tempt others to do so.
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