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Old 04-28-2002, 05:50 PM   #76
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Originally posted by STING2:
Oil is an important part of the United Kingdoms economy just like any Industrialized nation, which is why they will be with us if there is military action in Iraq.
What I find so interesting here is that you openly admit that the US would attack Iraq purely to protect it's own oil interests, and yet you would still support such an attack. I'm used to seeing justifications of attacks on other countries under the pretense of 'protecting human rights' or 'fighting the war on drugs' 'preventing the spread of communism' and so forth. It's actually quite refreshing to see someone openly admit the US is just looking after its own interests.

I guess now the US isn't even ashamed of its imperialist foreign policy.
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Old 04-28-2002, 06:10 PM   #77
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Well if you support Israels right to defend itself against terrorism, then you should support the military action in Jenin that uprooted one of the largest terror cells on the West Bank.

In war, having entire city blocks destroyed is not unusual. What exactly is more gruesome in Jenin then any other city where intense fighting has occured? I have yet to see anything that indicates terrorism by IDF forces. It is normal for houses and other buildings to be totally destroyed in intense fighting as well as having civilians killed in the crossfire.

Palestinian hate and anger should never prevent Israel from doing what is just and destroying terrorist cells. It has been very calm on the terror front since the Israely incursion which shows that it has had a positive effect in limiting terror activities. The Palestinians need to turn their hate and anger into activities that are non-violent and are actually productive in achieving their goals. Terror attacks only succeed in bringing more IDF forces into the West Bank.
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Old 04-28-2002, 06:20 PM   #78
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The US interest is in everyones interest since every Industrialized country or those that are attempting to industrialize use Oil. It is in the interest of everyone that Oil resources are protected from Saddam and others that would try to harm the global economy. The Economic fact is that the Economic situation in the USA effects nearly every country on the planet. There is no other country on the planet that buys more imported products from outside its borders than the USA. But if the average american consumer is forced to spend more money on fuel than other products, then that is going to have a negative effect on the American economy as well as other economies through out the world. The ripple effect will be felt in some way everywhere. Thats interdependence for you. My interest is your interest.
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Old 04-28-2002, 06:26 PM   #79
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Interesting article 80s!
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Old 04-28-2002, 07:03 PM   #80
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Sting2, there are a few things that I would like to get off of my mind here, and I would be interested in what you may have to say:

First off, you imply that Europeans are racist against Jews, and that any criticism of Israeli policies automatically qualifies one as being anti-semitic. I dont know how you feel justified in making such a comment! I have eagerly studied Jewish religion and culture/history this year, and I dont support Israeli actions! First off, the IDF has about $2 BILLION in funding from the US alone, each year. Do they really need that much money? $2 billion is a lot of money, and it could be put to much better use than to buy more Apache helicopters for the IDF. The Palestinians arent the ones who are trying to establish a Middle-Eastern empire, as Israel has shown by its past history not just in Palestine, but in Jordan Egypt etc. Israel has been a nation-state for only 50 years. Jews have not been a majority in the area since only recently, while the Palestinians have lived in the area for over a thousand. Israel should not have any justification for occupying such land in the first place. If they had not taken over the contended areas in '67 or if they had withdrawn soon afterwards, would they have suicide bombers killing innocent people, only in the areas that they occupied, for the most part? I do not like any violence of any type, but you have to understand that when a US-style military machine has been occupying your land and your ancestors land and is establishing illegal settlements there, what options do you have open? History has shown that Israel is not interested in ending the new settlements. Will passive acceptance from the Palestinians result in their freedom? Kalishnikov rifles are not of much use against war planes and heavily armored tanks. Although it is disgusting to run in with bombs and blow innocent people up, what else can they do? Negotiate with the people who destroy olive trees for "security" reasons for peace on their terms? Its not going to happen. Suicide bombers may target innocents, but dont you try saying that never in the history of the IDF that there has not been a single young man just recruited into the army who perhaps by chance may not like the Palestinians, and who will be totally unbiased in any way. You cannot say that because it is not true, anywhere in the world. Have you seen www.notinmyname.org? Because that clearly shows not all of the Jewish people support Israeli actions, if you will accept nothing else as a "fact".

I guess you may have forgotten that Zionists in the 1940s commited acts that may be called "terrorism" on British soldiers and civilians. This had an influence in Britain withdrawing their forces and allowed Zionists to establish their state. Isnt it funny how almost no website, tv show, or other poster "forgets" this? Im not supporting that terrorism or any other one. But you have to consider such things.

Next off, I want to address the issue of racial ideas in Europe and elsewhere. It is true that the Jewish people have suffered much in Europe. But, they are NOT the only people to have suffered and been persecuted in the history of mankind. I myself am Polish, living in Canada. I am not Jewish, and I have dealt with a fair share of racism in my life. Eastern European settlers in the Canadian West were often slandered and made the objects of much critism. The Jewish people were not the only people to have been murdered on-masse in WW2. What do you think Hitlers policy was to Slavic peoples in general? Not too kind, he had grand illusions of destroying us for "lebensraum" and of making us his slaves. I do not remember the exact figures, but I believe Poland lost about 1/3 of its population in the war. Hell, some of those disgusting death camps the Nazis used were built in Poland itself. And we were "rewarded" with being made a Soviet satellite state for having our country destroyed. But if Poland these days were to make foreign policy moves that I saw as wrong, I would criticize it, just as anyone else would have the right to do without being biased against. Just like the majority of Europeans react to Israel and NOT Judaism. I have several German friends, and I really like studying German culture and music, I dont hate them and neither do many Europeans, and we live right next door to them. Under Stalin, some 11 million people were killed in Ukraine. And what about the massacres in Rwanda a few years back? What I am trying to imply here is that I symphasize with the Jewish people in their massive sufferings, as should anyone, but I also want to clearly tell you that many peoples have suffered due to hate and bigotry, and that hating Israels foreign policies has nothing to do with its people or culture.

What would you, Sting2, propose to end this never-ending conflict? If you agree with Mr. Sharon in that sending in armed and ready soldiers into an area of people that are afraid to death of you, destroy their homes, and kill them, intentionally or not, that they will sit down with smiles on their faces the next day with you to set up a peace arrangement? That is the kind of logic that has killed many, on both sides, and that must stop. If 50 years of military incursions have not led to an end of the suffering, what leads you to believe that it will suddenly stop now? I would be interested in why you believe that. Also, I would like to say a bit about the relationships between Arab countries and Israel in general. Prior to this century, Jews, Arabs, and other Muslims lived in peace. Jews in the Muslim Ottoman Empire lived under much better conditions than they ever did in Europe at the same time, in Islamic Spain the same applies. Israel has itself made enemies of these people in the last century. Talking with a friend who has lived in Abu Dhabi for about 7 years, she tells me that people who even visit Israel from there are not allowed to return. This is not due to racism alone, maybe now it is, but because of the hole that Israel has dug itself in for the past 50 years.

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Old 04-28-2002, 10:32 PM   #81
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Mikesimus,
Most people in Europe are not racist against anyone or any faith. But there are elements in Europe that are anti-Jewish. While nearly if not all the criticism by European governments has no underlying racist motivation, the un-objective nature of the criticism is cause for concern. The media in Europe make it look worse.

3 Billion dollars a year is clearly justified given the military balance in the region vs Israel. Israel has been attacked numerous times over the past 50 years by multiple countries. Israel is outnumbered when it come to numbers and needs high quality US military equipment to defend itself against Arab armies that have superior numbers of men and equipment. Israel is the only democracy in the region and has been a friend of the USA since its inception. The 3 billion dollars a year is clearly neccessary and not all of it is for military aid. Israel has one of the most difficult security situations worldwide given the constant possibility of a 3 front war. I'm surprised the level of US funding is not more. The USA gives just as much money to Egypt.
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Old 04-28-2002, 11:07 PM   #82
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Mikesmus,
The Palestinians do seem to want to end the state of Israel. Israel is not an empire. Even if it was it would be the smallest empire in history. Israel was attacked by several Arab countries on the day it first became a State. It was then attacked by other Arab states in 56', 67', and 1973. The land that was taken happened the course of defeating Arab armies. Given Israels difficulty in defending itself, it kept the land because much of the terrain was good for defense. The Arab countries of course still had the goal of destroying Israel, so naturally they have kept this land which acts as a buffer and gives the IDF more time to prevent the country from being overrun in an all out war due to its small size.

Jews have lived in parts of Israel for nearly 4 thousand years. Of course they have not always been the majority or even close to it, but there has always been a Jewish community there. So the claim that Israel has no right to any land there is false. In the late 1800s with a population of only 400,000 people, most of the land(Palestine) was not being used or lived on and belonged to no one except the Ottoman Empire which allowed Jews from Europe to settle there as anti-semitism increased in Europe.

Most of the suicide attacks do NOT occur in the west bank and gaza. They usually take place in non-occupied areas against non-military targets. There are nearly a billion people on this planet that live in worse conditions than the Palestinians. Yet, they don't strap themselves with bombs to blow innocent people up. There is no logical defense for terrorism. Non-violent action will result in a Palestinian state. Terrorism will only insure that it will never happen. Oh, and you say that rifles are not effective against tanks and planes and that their only choice is to use bombs to blow up innocent people in non-occupied areas. Why don't they direct their bomb attacks against IDF soldiers in OCCUPIED territories instead of teens in a disco in Israel perhaps listening to U2.

Terrorism will never achieve the goals of Palestinians and will only bring more Israely soldiers into the West Bank. As far as Jewish people being against Israely actions, their views are in the minority, and fail to have proof to match that of the majority. But at least they are allowed to express their views. How many people in the West Bank and Gaza or for that matter most Arab countries would be allowed to hold a rally in support of Israel or in condemnation of Palestinian terrorist?
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Old 04-29-2002, 12:00 AM   #83
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Ten Tips on How to Be an Arafat Apologist:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/columnis...ov04-11-02.htm

Twenty facts about Israel and the Middle East:

http://www.empoweramerica.org/stories/storyReader$515

Palestinian victims:

http://www.empoweramerica.org/stories/storyReader$511
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Old 04-29-2002, 12:29 AM   #84
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Mikesimus,
You talk of Israely terrorism in the 1940s. How about Palestinian terrorism. Severe riots against Jews by Palestinians happened through out the 1930s and 40s. A full scale revolt by Palestinian Arabs from 1936-1939 against the british involved acts of terror and the murder of british soldiers. Then you have the rejection of every British compromise proposal including one to divide Palestine into Arab and Jewish sectors. The Palestinians continued to reject proposals for peaceful settlement of the Issue including the UN Peace proposal of 1947 that offered Palestinians a state, and Jews a state. Palestinians could have had their state 55 years ago but rejected peace and decided with the Arab countries to destroy Israel. As late as 2000 the Palestinians continue to reject peace proposals.

I am well aware of the suffering of many people through out the world in history. I NEVER SAID JEWS WERE THE ONLY PEOPLE TO EVER SUFFER. Your attempt to marginalize what happened to the Jews in World War II, by listing other people that have suffered is not needed.

You mention that Israel has dug its own hole, but that is not the case. Unlike most countries, its very existence has and is constantly threatened by other Arab states. It is the Palestinians that have dug their own hole by rejecting peace deals from the UN in 1947 to the latest rejection of the peace deal in 2000. The Palestinians have chosen terrorism and the destruction of Israel and what has that left them with? Israel has managed to survive 4 wars started by Arab countries. Rather than being in a hole Israel is a prosperous democracy in a region where democracy does not exist. Nearly 40,000 Israely U2 fans attended U2s POPMART show in Israel at the same ticket price most Americans and Europeans payed. Why do you think U2 did not bring POPMART to the Arab countries? It is the Palestinians not the Israely's that have dug themselves into a hole.
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Old 04-29-2002, 12:35 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2:
[b]Mikesmus,
The Palestinians do seem to want to end the state of Israel. Israel is not an empire. Even if it was it would be the smallest empire in history. Israel was attacked by several Arab countries on the day it first became a State. It was then attacked by other Arab states in 56', 67', and 1973. The land that was taken happened the course of defeating Arab armies. Given Israels difficulty in defending itself, it kept the land because much of the terrain was good for defense. The Arab countries of course still had the goal of destroying Israel, so naturally they have kept this land which acts as a buffer and gives the IDF more time to prevent the country from being overrun in an all out war due to its small size.

You talk of this as being only strategic and only in the best interests of the Israeli people. You didnt address the fact that maybe the Palestinian people, who have lived on this land for generations, might not enjoy being controlled by an outside power? Its more than just simple defense here, the people in this strategic area you speak of clearly despise being controlled and manipulated by an army that is much more superior to them. Do you think that any country in the world would like being a "strategic zone" for their enemy? I think not.

Jews have lived in parts of Israel for nearly 4 thousand years. Of course they have not always been the majority or even close to it, but there has always been a Jewish community there. So the claim that Israel has no right to any land there is false.

I didnt say the Jews had NO claim at all, I said that they dont have claims to control and manipulate large Palestinian settlements like they clearly have, or to build settlements miles away from many Palestinian towns, which has the effect of dividing Palestine and making a future state very difficult to unite. Jews have lived in the region for thousands of years, but that dosent give them the right to manipulate other people and kick them from their homes. And dont try saying that the IDF has NEVER harmed an innocent soul. Its been well documented how they fired rubber bullets at and arrested people at the Wailing Wall, how settlers have murdered children in cold blood. Read some of the accounts on the website Ive provided, unless you want to discount that as well. I have a question for you: how does bulldozing an entire settlement to the ground, destroying peoples olive trees (justify this at least?), and denying medical aid to people in places like Jenin qualify your organization as one that cares for the people its occupying? Because that would be an awfully strange form of protection for people under occupation, dont you agree?
BTW, native peoples have lived in the New World for much longer than any European. Theyre not in the majority now, but they do have settlements. I guess that they should be given a state then? You support Israel fine but I doubt many people would support any sovereign aboriginal state. And they have been in the New World for at least 13,000 years, a bit longer than 4000.


In the late 1800s with a population of only 400,000 people, most of the land(Palestine) was not being used or lived on and belonged to no one except the Ottoman Empire which allowed Jews from Europe to settle there as anti-semitism increased in Europe.

Most of the suicide attacks do NOT occur in the west bank and gaza. They usually take place in non-occupied areas against non-military targets. There are nearly a billion people on this planet that live in worse conditions than the Palestinians. Yet, they don't strap themselves with bombs to blow innocent people up. There is no logical defense for terrorism.

No logical defense for terrorism? It is interesting that you failed to mention anything about Jewish terrorism in the 1940s against the British. Im guessing that either that was justified, or you just forgot about it. It is fact that Zionist terrorism against the British had an influence in Britain withdrawing their forces, and had a role in the state being formed. I agree, that if the Palestinians werent being controlled by Israel, they would be able to have a better army to fight off invaders from their land. If Israel has a right to defend itself, why shouldnt the Palestinians? It is awful that they attack teens in discos, as you say. If only the IDF was targeted it would be more justifiable, as they are armed invaders. It is also equally awful how Israeli troops and civilians murder in cold blood Palestinian civilians, particularly the women and children. Im sure that the 5 year old children they kill pose an enormous threat to innocent teens in discos, dont they? By killing and further controlling Palestinians, I dont see the incentive in people hating the Israelis any less than they did before. I wouldnt love someone if they killed my whole family, why should they?

Non-violent action will result in a Palestinian state. Terrorism will only insure that it will never happen. Oh, and you say that rifles are not effective against tanks and planes and that their only choice is to use bombs to blow up innocent people in non-occupied areas. Why don't they direct their bomb attacks against IDF soldiers in OCCUPIED territories instead of teens in a disco in Israel perhaps listening to U2.

What kind of nonviolent pressure? Its clear in Israels constant aggressive actions against the Palestinians that they are not going to peacefully settle anything, and with the US backing them up, the Israelis can insure that a Palestinian state will never happen. I agree that attacking Israeli civilians is wrong, but Israel happens to be controlled by a man who murdered 5000 innocent people in Lebabon a while back.

Terrorism will never achieve the goals of Palestinians and will only bring more Israely soldiers into the West Bank. As far as Jewish people being against Israely actions, their views are in the minority, and fail to have proof to match that of the majority. But at least they are allowed to express their views. How many people in the West Bank and Gaza or for that matter most Arab countries would be allowed to hold a rally in support of Israel or in condemnation of Palestinian terrorist?
Israel has attacked Egypt, destroyed Beirut, invaded Jordan, divided the Palestinians land. And you are asking why people in other Arab countries dont support Israels actions? I doubt that they would want to support Israel in the first place.

[This message has been edited by Mikesimus (edited 04-28-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Mikesimus (edited 04-28-2002).]
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Old 04-29-2002, 12:49 AM   #86
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Mikesimus,
The parties need to move back to the 2000 peace deal for there to be a final lasting settlement. Israel must be secure from Arab invasion and widespread Palestinian terrorism. The Palestinians, if they want their own state, must uproot and prevent terrorism and the idea of terror as a tool to achieve the political goals. IF the Palestinian leadership is incapable of doing this, then the IDF will have no choice but to do it for them as was the case of the past month. Unfortunately, Palestinian security and leadership that was supposed to be preventing terror was actually aiding it and supporting it.

When the Palestinians get leadership and security forces that actively disrupt terrorist cells instead of creating and supporting them. Then there will no longer be any reason for Israely incursions, and keeping or implementing a lasting peace deal will be easier.

There also must be a regional peace deal between Arab countries and Israel. By insuring Israely security, the Palestinians will have their state. As far as the boundries of a Palestinian state, the deal Palestinians were offered and rejected in 2000 is the best they are ever going to get. Hopefully the Palestinian leadership realizes that terrorism has failed and will be willing to go back to the negotiating table and sign a deal similar to the one they rejected in 2000.
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Old 04-29-2002, 12:57 AM   #87
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It was Israel that was attacked by Egypt, Jordan and by terror cells in Lebanon! How about Arab people having the freedom to demonstrate on any issure regardless of what side their government is on. When was the last time you ever saw that?
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Old 04-29-2002, 01:00 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2:
Mikesimus,
You talk of Israely terrorism in the 1940s. How about Palestinian terrorism. Severe riots against Jews by Palestinians happened through out the 1930s and 40s. A full scale revolt by Palestinian Arabs from 1936-1939 against the british involved acts of terror and the murder of british soldiers. Then you have the rejection of every British compromise proposal including one to divide Palestine into Arab and Jewish sectors. The Palestinians continued to reject proposals for peaceful settlement of the Issue including the UN Peace proposal of 1947 that offered Palestinians a state, and Jews a state. Palestinians could have had their state 55 years ago but rejected peace and decided with the Arab countries to destroy Israel. As late as 2000 the Palestinians continue to reject peace proposals.

I am well aware of the suffering of many people through out the world in history. I NEVER SAID JEWS WERE THE ONLY PEOPLE TO EVER SUFFER. Your attempt to marginalize what happened to the Jews in World War II, by listing other people that have suffered is not needed.

You mention that Israel has dug its own hole, but that is not the case. Unlike most countries, its very existence has and is constantly threatened by other Arab states. It is the Palestinians that have dug their own hole by rejecting peace deals from the UN in 1947 to the latest rejection of the peace deal in 2000. The Palestinians have chosen terrorism and the destruction of Israel and what has that left them with? Israel has managed to survive 4 wars started by Arab countries. Rather than being in a hole Israel is a prosperous democracy in a region where democracy does not exist. Nearly 40,000 Israely U2 fans attended U2s POPMART show in Israel at the same ticket price most Americans and Europeans payed. Why do you think U2 did not bring POPMART to the Arab countries? It is the Palestinians not the Israely's that have dug themselves into a hole.
You misunderstood me when I talked about other peoples suffering in history. What I am trying to do is say something about the fact that when European governments or citizens or others criticize Israeli actions, that saying such a thing automatically qualifies as a racist statement. It is not a racist statement, it is a statement against excessive military force. What I dont appreciate is how SOMETIMES one cannot protest Israels actions without somehow hating Jewish culture. I also refer to statements being made that the Germany of today should be fully supportive of all of Israels actions, I know that such statements are rare but I wanted to let you know how foolish they sound!

You mention how Israel being the only democracy somehow justifies its superiority. I have talked to people from un-democratic nations in the Middle East who are just fine with their lives. Forcing democracy on them would be seen as a form of imperialism. Some in the Middle East would much rather have an Islamic community than the many nations. Islamic culture, unlike Western, does not see a seperation between religion and government. It was this way for centuries and it was in the very core of their way of life. Perhaps some more cultural understanding of the Islamic nations would help.

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Old 04-29-2002, 01:16 AM   #89
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Mikesimus,
I'm well aware of Islamic culture and was not defining Israels democracy specifically as a reason to define it as superior. But it does give women the right to vote and to oppose the actions of their government. While many in the Arab world prefer their government and culture which is tied to it, HOW MANY PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THOSE COUNTRIES HAVE A CHOICE? What about people that might want to have the opportunities that western democracy offers?
In terms of freedom of Religion, the ability to vote and choose ones leaders, human rights, and freedom of speach, western democracy is vastly superior. While many in those countries may prefer their system, most have narrow view and understanding of western democracy and have never lived in the USA. Many who would prefer the rights and freedoms of western democracy in arab countries have no choice but to continue to submit to the undemocratic laws and customs of the country they live in.
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Old 04-29-2002, 01:17 AM   #90
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Mikesimus,
I'm well aware of Islamic culture and was not defining Israels democracy specifically as a reason to define it as superior. But it does give women the right to vote and to oppose the actions of their government. While many in the Arab world prefer their government and culture which is tied to it, HOW MANY PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THOSE COUNTRIES HAVE A CHOICE? What about people that might want to have the opportunities that western democracy offers?
In terms of freedom of Religion, the ability to vote and choose ones leaders, human rights, and freedom of speach, western democracy is vastly superior. While many in those countries may prefer their system, most have narrow view and understanding of western democracy and have never lived in the USA. Many who would prefer the rights and freedoms of western democracy in arab countries have no choice but to continue to submit to the undemocratic laws and customs of the country they live in.
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