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Old 04-25-2002, 08:03 PM   #46
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Posted: April 24, 2002
11:21 p.m. Eastern

By Paul Sperry

2002 WorldNetDaily.com
WASHINGTON -- "I'm not spreading propaganda," George Stephanopoulos' orthodox-nun sister vows, but Israeli soldiers last week "defecated" on the floors of a West Bank medical clinic they raided.
They're also looting Palestinians' homes there, claims Sister Maria Stephanopoulos, a nun at the Convent of St. Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem.
A Russian Orthodox Christian (who changed from Greek Orthodox), Stephanopoulos runs a school for Palestinian girls there, and is pleading with priests here, via e-mail, to "get on the phone and ask your congressman and senators why the United States government is backing this invasion of Israeli forces into sovereign (Palestinian) areas, (and) why so many innocent civilians are being terrorized."
Her brother, George, is the rising star and future host, reportedly, of ABC News' "This Week." The former senior adviser to President Clinton has done his own "reporting" from Jerusalem on the Israeli-Palestinian showdown.
In recent broadcasts of ABC's Sunday talk show here, Stephanopoulos expressed support for the Saudi peace initiative as "a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem."
He advised Israel to back off its "hard line" and withdraw from the West Bank, where Israel has sent tanks in response to systematic attacks from Palestinian suicide bombers in recent months.
"There's no end to the terrorism unless there's an end to the occupation," Stephanopoulos said.
More, he said PLO leader Yasser Arafat should not give up his Ramallah bunker.
"Arafat cannot make the mistake that President Bush wants him to make," Stephanopoulos intoned. "It'll look like he's surrendering."
He did not agree that Arafat, as the leader of the Palestinian terrorists, is the source of the problem.
"The problem is beyond Arafat," said Stephanopoulos, who urged Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to meet with Arafat in private to patch things up.
His sister is even more tendentious in her reporting.
Relaying what a Palestinian Orthodox couple told her over the phone last week, Stephanopoulos said, "Israeli soldiers have entered their new home in the middle of the night three times in the last month, once stealing all the money from the house, and another time strafing the house with gunfire, miraculously only slightly wounding one of their daughters."
At the couple's clinic, moreover, soldiers allegedly "defecated on the floors" and destroyed a $20,000 ultrasound machine, Stephanopoulos, 41, reported through the eyes of her Palestinian friends.
"There are reports that some newborns have died during these past two weeks in Bethlehem because they were unable to receive medical attention," she added.
As for the Palestinians who seized the Church of the Nativity, Stephanopoulos says they are not terrorists ... "for the most part."
"Only seven of the men could be considered dangerous or wanted men by Israel," she asserted.
Nearly all of Mother Maria's reporting comes from Palestinian sources. She has not herself witnessed the alleged Israeli atrocities.
"There is no way we can confirm any of that," admitted Stephanopoulos family friend Father John Reeves, referring to the alleged Palestinian home-and-clinic raids cited by Stephanopoulos in her April 15 e-mail to him. The long message was posted on the Holy Land Christian Ecumenical Foundation's website. Reeves, pastor of Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in State College, Pa., says Stephanopoulos' e-mails from the West Bank aren't always 100-percent accurate, but her "motives are pure."
"She's not trying to fan the flames," he said in a phone interview. "Mother Maria has relayed the difficulties the Palestinians have encountered under Israeli occupation."


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Old 04-25-2002, 09:15 PM   #47
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Sting, you keep on referring to innocent lives being taken at the discos..... Just out of curiosity, does anyone in the US know how many children have been, bombed, shot, and beaten by the IDF. Well, the answer is simple, no one can really keep track of the numbers killed. Jenin was a big thing, but stuff like Jenin happens in a less extreme way day by day in the West Bank. Its sad on how American media is censored to the extent that you don't see the other sides day to day suffering.
I'll give you one in a hundred example. The other day, the IDF threw a boxing glove at a Palestinian boy.. He started playing with it, and boom, the glove was a bomb. Stuff like this happens, hour to hour, day to day.... And we are calling the man who leads all this a "man of peace". Thats disturbing.....
I'm looking at the big pic, what suicide bombing does is create more chaos, i think it is such an evil act. But worst of all, to have a government choke the West bank's people, is an even higher crime. I think that if terrorism is to stop, Israel, should look at itself, the IDF and Sharon.
I pray for the victims of this tragic conflict.
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Old 04-25-2002, 11:34 PM   #48
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You need to provide proof of these "war crimes" you speak of, and if proven, then those who committed them should be prosecuted. So far no one has established as fact that any war crimes occured at Jenin. Many people are accidently killed in war in the crossfire that happens. Palestinian terrorist decided to resist inside a heavily populated area. It is only natural to assume that many innocent people died in the crossfire. But they were never the targets!

In the suicide bombings in Israel, there is ONLY one target! Innocent people! A concerted effort is made by the suicide bomber to kill innocent people. That fact is UNDISPUTED!

Again if the IDF were terrorist, everyone in the West Bank and GAZA would have been killed decades ago.

The Terror that was committed against the USA on 9/11 is the same type of terror that is being committed against Israel. There is nothing that can defend it. The Palestinians Cheered, laughed, and celebrated in the streets upon the news that over 3,000 innocent people in my country had been murdered in less than 2 hours! That just shows you how sick some of Palestinian culture is.
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Old 04-26-2002, 03:22 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2:
The Palestinians Cheered, laughed, and celebrated in the streets upon the news that over 3,000 innocent people in my country had been murdered in less than 2 hours! That just shows you how sick some of Palestinian culture is.
I wish I had more time to respond to the rest of this argument as I think there are some very contentious issues being debated now. I just want to say this though: the footage you saw on CNN, NBC and other news networks, supposedly of Palestinian people celebrating on September wasn't that at all. Those pictures were library pictures and had no relation to September 11th. I don't know if a genuine mistake was made, or if it was just a cynical attempt to whip up hatred against Palestinian people, but either way, it was presented completely inaccurately.

This is a link to an article you might be interested in reading. It's written by journalists who have spent time in Palestine and spoken to people who were in Jenin at the time the IDF carried out their 'intervention'. The source is The Independent - a British newspaper which isn't considered to be on the left or right.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...p?story=288592

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Old 04-26-2002, 12:12 PM   #50
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50% civilians
I'm not exactly sure whether to trust this figure for 100% or not but I do think it's more likely then reports of "some accident casualties"

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Old 04-26-2002, 06:48 PM   #51
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Fizzing,
Could you please produce some type of proof that the video that clearly shows Palestinians celebrating was a fabrication. Until you do, its a clear fact that did happen and was seen worldwide. To add to that, thousands of Palestinians had pro Bin Ladin marches in the weeks after 9/11 widely seen on TV. Are going to say that did not happen either? How many American flags have been burned since 9/11?

Now to the article. First to start off, let me make clear that Eye Witness testimony by itself is NOT FACT. You have to have more evidence than that to prove a war crime.
The article talks of several people who were outside walking to or away from the seen of fighting. It then says they were shot by Israely soldiers. How or why they were shot is not explained. It is assumed to be cold bloody murder. In WAR, fighting is often confused. The people who went to help wounded Palestinians were shot probably because they were in the line of fire. The Article clearly states they were near palestinian resistence fighters. Guess what, soldiers miss! Not every shot that is fired hits its intended target. I think you know that! When fighting is done in such close proximity, people on all sides both civilian, resistance fighter, and even other Israely soldiers are bound to be hit by miss targeted fire. WAR is not neat or organized when fighting in Urban area's, often at night. If Terrorist are fighting from a house the military has every right to engage that target with everything they have in their arsonal.

The bottom line is that mistakes or accidents could explain every single incident listed in the article. Also the accounts of Israely soldiers contradict the accounts of these civilians. Thats why you have to have more than simply eyewitness testimony. Also, If a Palestinian civilian runs toward Israely soldiers without stopping, how are Israely soldiers to know that person does not have a bomb, the soldiers have no choice but to open fire to prevent themselves from being killed by a possible suicide bomber!

Clearly this article is biased because they turn eyewitness testimony of one side into FACT. That alone is never FACT. Perhaps its not to the right or the left. But it is a European publication which means that it is probably anti-semitic, especially given the un-objective nature of the article.

A clear example of a War Crime is when for example, caputured men are blind folded and led to a ditch or wall, and then shot from nearly point blank range. Most of the injuries after the bodies are found and examined are nearly the same, to include type of round and type of injuries and location of them that lead to death. That is the type of science that proved war crimes in other locations around the world. When you have people with all different types of injuries that led to death, from different types of objects, that just shows the normal Chaos of war and not war crimes. Another way to show or prove war crimes is to have Video that clearly shows both soldier or Terrorist and victim and crime commited in real time.

The Israely's rightly blocked the UN investigation because it did not have Military personal on the commision nor terrorism experts. Only military and terrorism experts who accurately understand military operations and the intense Chaos of war will be able to determine possibly if war crimes were committed or not. Also carefull examination of the bodies should tell the real story. Again doctors who examine the bodies will be looking for a trend in terms of location of injuries and type of injury plus cause to determine if the persons death was caused by a war crime or normal chaos of being in a battlefield. The commision did have people politically motivated against Israel. Hopefully a new one will be formed with the responsible experts included.
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Old 04-26-2002, 07:03 PM   #52
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Amna,
The pictures on that site which is clearly biased did not show any war crimes committed by Israely soldiers. Clearly it showed people who had been wounded or killed, but how that actually happened is not known or shown in the photograph. Many of the pictures were clearly taken out of context. Of course when Israely tanks go into restore order in an area, your going to see people running. That does not mean that the Israely tank is actually after the childern. Each of those tanks has a rapid fire machine gun that could have mowed down all those childern in seconds. THAT did not happen and the tanks turret is turned away from them. Another picture where the Israely soldier is kneeling down and is gun looks as if it might be pointed the direction of the mothers childern, but the soldier is not looking at them and the gun is really pointed past the childern.

Amna, I suggest you go to websites that will offer information more objectively than the one you used. It shows pictures and captions of those pictures attempting to show Israely war crimes, but in reality shows only human suffering and not the circumstances in which that suffering was brought about. Even the website that Fizzing mentioned is better than that.
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Old 04-27-2002, 12:15 AM   #53
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O my god, Sting, u r pretty stubborn in your beliefs that the IDF are doing a good job in what they do.... Did it ever occur to you that the US media is extremely bias as a whole... All info that we recieve is bias information... I've been studying the conflict for a while.... And believe me, I've studied from valid resources.... Study your biases and make your own oppinion...
The US is supporting Israel to buy voters choice. The US as a whole has more of a majority of Jewish people. So, the reason why we support Israel is def. not based on moral and ethics. so, as a result, of course our media is going to hold great propoganda showing more of one side then the other.
Media is censored. So, your telling me to get a valid resource? My question is coming back to you, where's your valid un-bias resource.
You look at those pictures, and your making your own assumptions. Well, fine go ahead.... But on 20/20, *+(the pic of the father and son)was shown, both were defensless, yet the army (roughly 30 men) shot fires against the little boy, who was crying...... This isn't a war crime?
OPEN YOUR EYES
What is going on?
I've got another question for the public... Here we are supplying Israel with roughtly 70 billion dollars.... Where as we have a growing poverty rate here. In addtion, Africa is suffering greatly... Why the hell is 70bill going towards one country.

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Old 04-27-2002, 03:45 AM   #54
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Amna,
First, US support for Israel per year is not 70 billion. It is 3 billion dollars. There is obvious support for Israel both on Moral and Ethical grounds. Israel is one of the few countries in the world that is surrounded by enemies and was attacked in different ways 4 times from 1948 to 1973. Terrorism and airplane highjackings, killing athletes at the Olympics, are hallmarks of the Palestinian resistance. Israel offered the Palestinians a peace deal, the best the Palestinians could ever hope for, and they rejected it and responded with suicide bombings.

Here is a fact for you. No media outlet, biased or unbiased, Palestinian, Israely, European, or American, disputes the fact that Palestinians commit terror through suicide bombings of innocent Israely civilians. What is heavily disputed is the assumption that the IDF plans and executes terrorism against Palestinian civilians.

I'm sorry but the mere fact that civilians are killed on the battlefield in and of itself is not a war crime. It is sad for sure, but that is what happens in war. The boy and man that you talk were unfortunately caught in a crossfire during a battle and were killed. If they had just been huddled in the corner like that with no shooting from Palestinians they would have been ordered to come out, perhaps partially strip their clothes to show they did not have a bomb on them and then taken in to questioning or released depending on the circumstances of the situation.

Going back to the pictures on the website you showed. Yes, I was able to form an assumption about them, just as the people who posted them were, for the simple fact is that all they showed were people suffering and did not actually show the alleged crime in progress. There for how can anyone know for sure that in fact did happen as the website said it did. Again, the IDF says such things did not happen, that they did not target people they knew were not terrorist and innocent.

The only way to prove war crimes is through scientific examination of the bodies and cause of death, or video showing clearly the crime and progress, and no it can be confused combat footage where the soldiers are firing at many different things in the heat of combat. The evidence has to clearly demonstrate that the attacker new the victim was a non-combatent, and show the attacker clearly commiting the crime against the victim.

I've looked at many sources throughout the internet, but have yet to see proof of Israely war crimes at Jenin or anywhere else over the past few weeks. Certainly all media is biased. But I'm more likely to trust media institutions that are based in DEMOCRACIES rather than media that comes from countries where the government has total control over what is printed and the government is not a democracy. Freedom of speech and freedom of the press are things the west enjoys that most in the Middle East do not have. By the way, Israel is a democracy and was the first country in the region to give ARAB WOMEN the right to vote!

I will not defend the IDF if indisputable evidence is produced to show they committed war crimes. So far none has surfaced and I'm not going to trust the allegations of a group of people that activily supports and believes in the actions of suicide bombers that target and kill only innocent people. Indisputable evidence must be produced to support their allegations for them to be credible.
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Old 04-27-2002, 03:49 AM   #55
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the IDF has commited many war crimes, they just haven't been throroughly judged in the US....
1. Footage of innocent lives being killed....
pour example:http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/...cs/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/...cs/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/...cs/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/...cs/0000170.php


(if u don't call that a war crime, then, Sting, I don't know whats wrong with you... Because no child should ever be killed for throwing a couple of stones.
2. Sabra and Shatilla, Lebanon: Many are trying to file suits against Sharon.
3. Most Palestinians have showed their gratititude for those lost in the Sep.11th incident..... Their were many candle lighting ceremonies.

Why is it so hard to admit that both sides have commited crimes against peace, its true....
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Old 04-27-2002, 03:52 AM   #56
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the IDF has commited many war crimes, they just haven't been throroughly judged in the US....
1. Footage of innocent lives being killed....
pour example:http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/...cs/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/...cs/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/...cs/0000170.php
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/...cs/0000170.php


(if u don't call that a war crime, then, Sting, I don't know whats wrong with you... Because no child should ever be killed for throwing a couple of stones.
2. Sabra and Shatilla, Lebanon: Many are trying to file suits against Sharon.
3. Most Palestinians have showed their gratititude for those lost in the Sep.11th incident..... Their were many candle lighting ceremonies.

Why is it so hard to admit that both sides have commited crimes against peace, its true....
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Old 04-27-2002, 03:57 AM   #57
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Sharon Gives Bush the Finger!




Israel Raids West Bank City Despite Bush Call
By REUTERS

Filed at 1:13 p.m. ET

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel asked the U.N. to delay its investigation of Jenin refugee camp and sent troops back into a Palestinian city Friday, defying President Bush's latest call for an end to its offensive.

A Palestinian official said Israel's demand showed it had something to hide and urged the United Nations to get tough.

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan had insisted a fact-finding team arrive by Saturday to look into what happened during Israel's three-week assault on the West Bank camp. Israel denies Palestinian charges that troops committed a massacre there.

SHARON'S RATINGS RISE
Sharon, whose domestic popularity was at its lowest ebb before the operation began, has seen his ratings climb 19 percentage points to 64, according to a poll published in Israel's Yediot Ahronoth daily Friday.

Now we know why people are being crushed to death in their homes
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Old 04-27-2002, 12:26 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2:
Clearly this article is biased because they turn eyewitness testimony of one side into FACT. That alone is never FACT. Perhaps its not to the right or the left. But it is a European publication which means that it is probably anti-semitic, especially given the un-objective nature of the article.
I take issue with your statement here, insinuating that Europeans are anti-semitic (a strange term these days BTW, as Palestinians also descend from the Semetic people). No, we are not anti-jewish. Many Europeans, however, are very critical to the actions Israel takes against Palestinians, their policy of destroying Palestinian infrastucture, both physical as social, and constant humiliation of the Palestinian people. But this does not make them anti-jewish (at most you can say anti-Israel).
You may be right in saying that the report in The Independent is not a fact, as the article does not give substantial evidence or quotes other independent sources, but that does not mean you can dismiss it that easily. This article is not the only one describing the situation in Palestina (Jenin in this case), many more sources report of the behaviour of the Israelis in the occupied regions. The article alone may not be a FACT, but it is a SOURCE to a FACT.

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Old 04-27-2002, 04:15 PM   #59
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Popmartian,
Its not a source to a fact, because what is alleged to have happened in Jenin has not been established as fact. Its true that Palestinians can also be refered to as semitic, but for the most part this term has refered to the Jews.

While I can't establish this as a fact, I do feel that on the whole, Europe is Anti-Jewish. It was discrimination of Jews all over Europe starting in the 1800s that led many of them to start and settle in Palestine. Then came World War II and the slaughter of 6 million Jews. No Hitler and the SS did not do it by themselves. There were many people in countries through out Europe who aided or told them who were Jews, or made no attempt to hide them. It is sad and discusting and I hate when Europeans act with indifference towards what happened. Just recently in France, the #2 guy in the first round of voting has said that the slaughter of Jews was just a minor event. Switzerland made a handsome profit from the slaughter of Jews in World War II. Then you have all these hate crimes that are committed against Jews in Europe with the recent crises. After what happened 60 years ago in Europe, that is just sick!

I look at that, and then see Europes un-objective reaction to events in Israel. They overlook the slaughter of Israely citizens attack Israels right to defend itself. They accuse Israel of war crimes yet give no evidence to support their views. Instead of holding back judgement until the Facts are known, they rush to judgement of Israel. Some countries were about to issue economic sanctions! That is just sick. You combine these two facts of Europes past and present and its rather frightening.
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Old 04-27-2002, 04:57 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2:
While I can't establish this as a fact, I do feel that on the whole, Europe is Anti-Jewish. It was discrimination of Jews all over Europe starting in the 1800s that led many of them to start and settle in Palestine. Then came World War II and the slaughter of 6 million Jews. No Hitler and the SS did not do it by themselves. There were many people in countries through out Europe who aided or told them who were Jews, or made no attempt to hide them.


I assume by this logic I could describe the United States as racist due to its acceptance of slavery until the mid-nineteenth-century and refusal to guarantee Black people any civil rights until the 1960s.

Quote:
Just recently in France, the #2 guy in the first round of voting has said that the slaughter of Jews was just a minor event.


Jean-Marie Le Pen - leader of the French National Front - a fascist party which believes Black people ought to have limited access to jobs, public services and housing and supports an immediate end to immigration and the forced deportation of three million immigrants. Le Pen is certainly one of the most disgusting figures in contemporary politics, and sadly there are others like him across Europe. However, I don't believe Le Pen's views on the holocaust are shared by the majority of citizens in Europe, and I'd like to draw your attention to the mass demonstrations which occured following his "success" (17% of the vote) in the first round of the French elections. Please don't assume that the politics of the far-right are the politics of all European citizens, anymore than the politics of far-right politicians in the United States (Pat Buchanan, for example) are representative of all people.

Quote:
I look at that, and then see Europes un-objective reaction to events in Israel. They overlook the slaughter of Israely citizens attack Israels right to defend itself. They accuse Israel of war crimes yet give no evidence to support their views. Instead of holding back judgement until the Facts are known, they rush to judgement of Israel. Some countries were about to issue economic sanctions! That is just sick. You combine these two facts of Europes past and present and its rather frightening.
You assume criticism of Israel is automatically criticism of Judaism. That's absolutely not the case, in fact even prominent members of the Jewish community have spoken out in condemnation of Israel's actions in recent months. You can criticise the actions of the Israeli government without reference to their religion. I don't condemn Ariel Sharon for being Jewish - I condemn him for ordering the events which have occured in Palestine recently. It has nothing to do with his religion - I would be equally critical if he were Christian, Muslim, Athiest or of any other faith.
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