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Old 04-23-2002, 12:39 AM   #31
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Anthony,
The main point about mentioning the british lives that were lost on Sept 11 was to show the interconected nature of our two countries today. The USA is important to the UK for business and Economic reasons as well as political and cultural reasons. What effects the US economy will eventually effect the economy in the UK due to a high level of trade and business activity between the two countries. Oil in the middle east and there for, stability in the middle east is just as important to the UK as it is for the USA! The two countries are in bed together for many reasons, and unless you want the UK to return to the 18th century, nothing is going to change that. The UK simply does not have a seperate set of interest from the USA nor the USA from the UK on the international scene. Thats why the two countries have been together on nearly every major international issue since the start of the 20th century. British lives were lossed on 9/11 as well as American lives. An Attack on American soil is an attack on British soil.
So you say the Europeans don't care eh? Well then why did the 19 countries of NATO declare that the attacks on 9/11 were an attack on all NATO countries? Why did Germany, Spain, Italy, Belguim, and the UK arrest Al-quada leaders that were planning attacks? Why have several of the NATO nations sent troops to Afghanistan and continue to operate with the USA in many ways through out the middle east? Its because we all have a common interest in stopping terrorism and preventing instability and war that would effect our interdependent economies and way of life. Europe makes a lot of money off of Exports to the United States as well as the USA doing well with Exports to Europe. I'm sorry but there is very little that seperates Europe and the USA, were tied at the hip. That does not mean there are disagreements, but in the long run, political and economic interdependency keeps us together. People in Europe who disagree with this are in denial.
In Northern Ireland in the 1960s, there was a very high level of unemployment, often upwards of 30%, and Catholics recieved an heavy discrimination in getting the few jobs there were. The level of unemployment among Catholics was much higher than Protestants. The Economic development and improving employment situation for everyone played just as an important role if not more important than the political agreements.
This is what I was told by people in Northern Ireland and Ireland when I was there for a few weeks in January. Everyone talked of the problems in the past tense. It was my first time to Northern Ireland and I found it just as beautiful and wealthy as the rest of Ireland.
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Old 04-23-2002, 12:44 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salome:
I can't think of many moments in history where killing people led to peace

Don't you want to restate that.. or Re Word It.. I understand what you're saying, But you're negating all War in General..

I've said this before, and I've posted articles saying it in much more eloquent terms, But the point remains.. Peace won't be achieved through Negotiation.. Of course, we've figured that out by now.. Only when one Side has been eliminated, or soundly defeated that they are not able to fight the next day, will there be peace..

Here's a Nice Editorial I found.. Enjoy...

THE WAR CRIMES LIE
NYPOST

April 22, 2002 --
THE Palestinian big lie against Israel keeps shifting as the truth emerges.

The first big lie was that the Israelis had perpetrated a massacre in Jenin, killing more than 500 people and then stashing them in mass graves. Then, as aid workers and journalists uncovered no evidence of mass graves, the lie was that the Israelis had secretly transported the dead bodies in refrigerated trucks.

Now it's that the Israelis have violated international law relating to war. Ac- cording to the BBC on Thursday, "International officials say some actions by [Israel's] troops, there and elsewhere, would appear to have breached the Fourth Geneva Convention relating to the protection of civilians in war or under occupation."

Why? Well, "the convention forbids violence being used against civilians, as well as inhumane or degrading treatment . . . It is claimed that civilians died in Jenin when their houses were demolished. The convention prohibits the destruction of property except where military operations make it absolutely necessary."

Lies. Lies lies lies. Damnable, outrageous, unseemly lies.

The simple truth is this: International law relating to the conduct of the incursion exculpates the Israelis and convicts the Palestinian Authority. Period.

The Israelis went into Jenin and made a systematic search for bomb laboratories and terror cells that had been hidden among civilians. The purpose was to destroy the laboratories and take prisoner or kill those who had been building the suicide bombs and directing the suicide attacks.

The Palestinian intifada describes itself as an armed struggle, an uprising. The word that describes the leaders and planners of such an armed struggle, in legal parlance, is "combatants."

And international law could not be any more plain. On June 8, 1977, the Fourth Geneva Convention was updated. The document is called "Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts."

Article 37 outlaws the use of civilian populations as a shield for military actions. It explicitly prohibits "the feigning of civilian, noncombatant status; and the feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict."

What the leaders of the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Hamas and Islamic Jihad do is hide among civilian populations to make it as difficult as possible for their enemies to attack them. The Geneva Convention denounces this as "perfidy."

Peter Bouckaert, a researcher at Human Rights Watch in New York who sneaked into Jenin on Thursday, told the Washington Post, "It's been incredibly difficult to tell the difference between fighters and civilians. If a combatant uses the civilian population as a shield in this way, the deaths incurred are the moral and legal responsibility of those who are hidings out in this grotesquely cowardly fashion.

Previously, Palestinians and their apologists had claimed the Israelis were violating the Fourth Geneva Convention by refusing to allow ambulances operated by the Red Crescent Society to move freely between Israeli hospitals and the West Bank towns in which the incursions were taking place.

Article 38 specifically addresses the ambulance issue: "It is prohibited to make improper use of the distinctive emblem of the red cross, red crescent or red lion and sun." And yet this is precisely what the Palestinians have done. The Israelis have stopped and searched ambulances emblazoned with the Red Crescent and found suicide belts hidden in them. One of these incidents, on March 27, was captured on videotape.

By using this internationally accepted symbol as a diversionary tactic - in essence turning ambulances into tanks - the Palestinians thus bear the moral and legal responsibility under international law for the Israeli refusal to allow the free conduct of Red Crescent vehicles.

The violators of international law - the criminals in this war - are the Palestinians who devised these shameful tactics.


E-mail: podhoretz@nypost.com


[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 04-22-2002).]
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Old 04-23-2002, 01:40 AM   #33
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Zoomerang96,
The USA has done far more than any other country on the planet to protect people who are unable to protect themselves. Yes the USA does act in its self interest like every other country on the planet does. But it also has many allies around the world that it protects and supplies. The USA has spent a century fighting to protect and free Europe from Totolitarian regimes and Communism. World War I, World War II, The Marshall Plan, Cold War, Bosnia, Kosovo.
There was no oil in South Korea, Vietnam and Somalia. US funding and Diplomatic efforts have helped to prevent a huge war between Greece and Turkey. But the USA alone does not have the money and power to intervene everywhere in the world where there is human rights abuses.
How about Greece? What did Greece do to help the people of Afghanistan while they were ruled by the Taliban. How about a little closer to home. What did Greece do to help Muslims in Kosovo? OR Bosnia? What did Greece do for the people in Somalia?
The USA acts in its self interest, which in fact is the interest of the entire industrialized world. Do people in Greece benefit when the price energy(oil) is cheap! You bet, everyone does. Do people in Greece benefit from Exports to the USA! They sure do.
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Old 04-23-2002, 10:06 PM   #34
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One thing that I have never noticed in any of these posts about the Middle Eastern conflict, is that Zionists actively perpetuated terrorist acts in the 1940s to help them establish the State of Israel. They killed many innocent people, especially British people. Yet this is never mentioned? Why was Israeli terrorism ok, and all others bad? I may be making wrong assumptions here, but you cant ignore the facts that Israel was at least partially founded due to terrorism and acts of violence against British soldiers and civilians.
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Old 04-24-2002, 04:32 PM   #35
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Lets put it in a simple equation problem:

Israel leave Palestine alone + Israel Highten security = Paletinian people free to live + No suicide bombing

You see, these suicide bombings are wrong... But when you have people living in conditions where they can't live, don't expect a good result.....
Ok, someone is going to get pissed off at me for saying this.... BUT DEAL, PALESTINE COULDN'T DEVELOP,BECAUSE OF ARAFAT AND MORE SO B/C OF SHARON'S FAT ASS AND THE IDF ON TOP OF THEM.
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Old 04-24-2002, 07:32 PM   #36
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There were few Israely soldiers in the West Bank until the huge increase in suicide bombers. The Palestinian Authority was supposed to be arresting terrorist but instead was helping them. Israel had no choice but to destroy known terrorist that were planning attacks. Why would anyone deny Israels right to do this?

The only way your are going to have peace is when Palestinians recognize that the #1 obstacle to their hopes for a Palestinian state are the culture of terrorism that they preach to their childern and act out against Israel. It is pointless and useless and achieves nothing for them. Only through non-violence and attempting to gain US support will the Palestinians be able to have a state. Suicide bombings don't achieve that. They just bring more Israely troops into the west bank and increase US support for Israel. The Palestinians need to be doing things that are actually productive in achieving their goal.
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Old 04-24-2002, 08:20 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mikesimus:
One thing that I have never noticed in any of these posts about the Middle Eastern conflict, is that Zionists actively perpetuated terrorist acts in the 1940s to help them establish the State of Israel. They killed many innocent people, especially British people. Yet this is never mentioned? Why was Israeli terrorism ok, and all others bad? I may be making wrong assumptions here, but you cant ignore the facts that Israel was at least partially founded due to terrorism and acts of violence against British soldiers and civilians.
Your information is correct. It is conveniently ignored or overlooked because of bias.
Perhaps ignorance would be more charitable.


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Old 04-24-2002, 09:16 PM   #38
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It is true that Jewish terrorist groups antagonized the interests of the British "empire" in the 1940s. This was because Britain had promised them as far back as 1917 an independent Jewish state; however, the international climate of World War I, World War II and the years in between encouraged the British "empire" instead to tighten its grasp, and also during that time, Palestinian sentiment built up.

Much like Sharon and his past terrorist activites, future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin was involved in some of the terrorist activities of the 1940s.

I don't know if the lack of attention to these events is the result of bias as much as the fact that it was overshadowed by the European and Pacific theatres of World War II.

I do not consider Israeli terrorism to be "ok," but I don't have a problem with their desire to break from the British "empire."

~U2Alabama
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Old 04-24-2002, 09:57 PM   #39
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The only way your are going to have peace is when Palestinians recognize that the #1 obstacle to their hopes for a Palestinian state are the culture of terrorism that they preach to their childern and act out against Israel
-----------------------------------------
Where did you get that fact from.....? Parents and family rarely preach this.... Their are organizations that support them... But like most of the suicide bombers, they were not taught by their parents to kill themselves..... How do I know this? Go read the article in the Time magazine about the young girl who killed herself in the market place.............. THESE ARE ACTS OF DESPERATION..... THEIR NOT RIGHT, BUT PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO......... THINK ABOUT IT, THEY HAVE NO REAL REPRESENTATION AND THEY LIVE IN A CONSTANT CAMP OF DESTRUCTION........
READ OR EDUCATE YOURSELF ON THE ACTIONS THAT WERE TAKEN. If terrorism should be fought, lets be fair....... There is terrorism within the IDF, and Sharon, and their is terrorism within Palestine..... Lets try and look at the whole picture.
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Old 04-24-2002, 11:04 PM   #40
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Liberals?... ANY QUESTIONS?.. A Nightmare? Feel free to gag in 'Poopaganda'.. No One Will Notice..


Sharon offers plan for peace
By Ben Barber
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon proposed a three-stage peace plan for the Middle East during a televised address to about 4,000 American supporters yesterday.
During his speech to members of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, Mr. Sharon repeated a proposal he has made for a regional peace conference including the United States, Israel, the Palestinians and moderate Arab states "to bring about a cessation of hostilities."
He said Israel would present a peace plan that includes three phases:
•A complete cessation of violence.
•A long-term intermediate agreement similar to an armistice.
•A permanent agreement in which final borders would be established for Israel and the Palestinians, "ending the conflict between us and the Palestinians and the Arab countries."
Hours later, members of his administration told reporters that Israel has withdrawn its offer to cooperate with a U.N. fact-finding mission being sent to determine what happened during Israel's operation in the Jenin refugee camp earlier this month.
An official told the Associated Press that Israel believes the United Nations has violated agreements with Israel in its selection of people for the commission and in drawing up its terms of reference.
Israel said it would not admit a U.N. fact-finding mission probing its siege of the Jenin refugee camp unless the team included military as well as counterterrorism experts.
In response, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said the team might be expanded "as deemed necessary," but he expected only a short delay in the mission, which he wants in the region by Saturday.
"The secretary-general agreed to postpone the departure of the fact-finding team to allow consultation to take place, but he expects the team to be in the Middle East by this Saturday," Mr. Annan's office said in a statement
A State Department official said the United States continued to support the investigation.
In London, a British Foreign Office aide, Ben Bradshaw, condemned reports of the Israeli government's about-face, warning that Israel was doing itself "irreparable damage" in the eyes of the international community.
He told the British Broadcasting Corp. that the move "would be a very foolish thing to do, the latest in a string of cataclysmic public relations mistakes by the Israeli government."
He added: "If Israel has nothing to hide, they have absolutely no reason not to allow this team to go ahead."
In his address to the committee, Mr. Sharon also defended his 3-week-old incursion into the West Bank and rejected charges of excessive use of force by Israeli soldiers.
It was not clear whether the intermediate agreement would follow the lines of a plan disclosed by Israeli Cabinet ministers in recent days calling for up to half of the West Bank to be annexed by Israel on an "interim" basis.
But in any case, the Sharon plan diverges markedly from the U.S. and Palestinian approaches to restoring the peace process.
The U.S. plan pushed by Secretary of State Colin L. Powell on his recent trip to the Middle East calls for working on a cease-fire and the political track at the same time.
Palestinians also call for immediate moves toward solving political problems such as settlements, refugees and boundaries, and they refuse to discuss a cease-fire unless those issues also are brought forward.
The Palestinians have rejected the idea of another interim agreement, which would essentially freeze Israeli control over most of the West Bank and delay any further land transfers to the Palestinian Authority.
Palestinians say their anger, which spilled over into violence and an intifada in September 2000, came because the interim agreement set up after the Oslo peace accords of 1993 was dragged out while Israel continued to build settlements in the West Bank.
Mr. Sharon defended Israel against criticism by U.N. and human rights officials over injuries and deaths to civilians during its three-week military campaign against suicide bombers and terrorist infrastructure in the West Bank.
"In Afghanistan, the United States is fighting terrorism," he said. "Sometimes innocent civilians are caught in the cross fire. Israel is fighting terrorism on our doorstep. We have a moral right and obligation to defend ourselves."
Much of the criticism has concerned events in the refugee camp in Jenin, the scene of eight days of intense fighting between Israeli troops and Palestinian gunmen. Israeli forces say that at least some civilians were buried alive when their homes were knocked down on top of them.
A government official said later that members of a U.N. panel named to explore what happened in Jenin would not be allowed to enter Israel until differences with the world body had been worked out.
Mr. Annan had named Martti Ahtisaari, a former president of Finland, to lead the team, which also included Cornelio Sommaruga, former president of the International Committee of the Red Cross, and Sadako Ogata, the former U.N. high commissioner for refugees.
An American official told Reuters news agency that the Bush administration, which sponsored the U.N. resolution last week that authorized the investigation, continued to support the probe.
In his speech, Mr. Sharon tied America's fate to that of Israel.
"Being the only true democracy in the Middle East, Israel stands at the forefront of the conflict between the civilized world and the forces of evil," he said.
President Bush, after meeting with Moroccan King Mohammed VI at the White House yesterday, called for the Palestinians to end the violence and for Israel to pull back its troops.


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Old 04-25-2002, 12:15 AM   #41
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IF the Israely Defense Force was a terrorist organization, everyone in the West Bank and Gaza would have been killed DECADES AGO! The Israely military, like any other well armed force, has the power to do that against a lightly armed civilian population of the size in the west bank and Gaza. What has happened over the past few weeks is Israely police action against Palestinian Terrorist who target innocent teens in Disco's.

The Palestinian people are far from desperate compared to nearly a Billion people who live in absolute poverty around the world in third world countries. Yet, these other people don't strap themselves with bombs and attempt to murder innocent civilians.

Ones percieved sense of desperation is no arguement or explanation for targeting innocent civilians in a disco. These childern do not wake up with bombs strapped to them. They are supported by a large network of terrorist on the west bank. They encourage and facilitate these attacks.

The Palestinians goal is for an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza.(of course for some its the destruction of Israel) Taking young impressionable youth and encouraging them or showing by example, to sacrifice themselves in killing innocent teens in a disco, perhaps listening to U2, does nothing to achieve that goal. Violence of any form is never going to achieve the Palestinian goal of an independent state. One would hope that after 35 years they would understand this.

Where is the non-violent movement in the Palestinian West Bank and Gaza? Where are the demonstrations against suicide bombings? Why are the suicidal acts of these childern celebrated and honored as martyr's? Where is the honor in targeting teens in a disco? What do the teens in the disco have to do with the bombers percieved sense of desperation? How will avoiding soldiers and police, seeking the most crowded group of civilians, and blowing yourself and them up, accomplish anything?

Again the only option for the Palestinians to achieve their goal is non-violent action. This will foster more US support and creat the conditions in which a stable and lasting peace and independence can be achieved.

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Old 04-25-2002, 02:56 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
It is true that Jewish terrorist groups antagonized the interests of the British "empire" in the 1940s. This was because Britain had promised them as far back as 1917 an independent Jewish state; however, the international climate of World War I, World War II and the years in between encouraged the British "empire" instead to tighten its grasp, and also during that time, Palestinian sentiment built up.

Much like Sharon and his past terrorist activites, future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin was involved in some of the terrorist activities of the 1940s.

I don't know if the lack of attention to these events is the result of bias as much as the fact that it was overshadowed by the European and Pacific theatres of World War II.

I do not consider Israeli terrorism to be "ok," but I don't have a problem with their desire to break from the British "empire."

~U2Alabama
Hmm, change a few names and place it in the current time and I think the quote above describes the current situation pretty well.

Marty



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Old 04-25-2002, 03:14 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:
Sharon offers plan for peace
By Ben Barber
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

[snip]

Palestinians also call for immediate moves toward solving political problems such as settlements, refugees and boundaries, and they refuse to discuss a cease-fire unless those issues also are brought forward.
The Palestinians have rejected the idea of another interim agreement, which would essentially freeze Israeli control over most of the West Bank and delay any further land transfers to the Palestinian Authority.
Palestinians say their anger, which spilled over into violence and an intifada in September 2000, came because the interim agreement set up after the Oslo peace accords of 1993 was dragged out while Israel continued to build settlements in the West Bank.
I think this is an important factor to consider when the two parties are negotiating again for peace, as it is one of the causes why it went wrong in 2000. Even though Arafat and Barak were negotiating a definite peace agreement, never did Barak lift one of the measures that restricted/humiliated the Palestinians. I don't think Barak did this with the reason to annoy the Palestinians, but not lifting the restrictions was a mistake.
I think this caused some unrest among the Palestinians (as in 'Barak is saying he wants peace, but he's still not doing anything about it'), a sentiment Sharon noticed. By not wanting peace himself (or certainly not with the terms Barak was negotiating) he provoked an outbreak of Palestinian anger by visiting the Temple Mountain (?). No doubt he wanted to have some violent reaction, which he could use for his own gain in his political campaign. But I think even Sharon was (pleasantly) surprised with the severity of the reaction and he has certainly used it to his gain as he got elected.

That is history, but it can give some advice for how to get a peace agreement. Both the majority of Israeli's as the majority of Palestinians want peace. The problem is that now nobody wants to take the first step, make the first move. And, both people have leaders who have a flashback to 1982 and are not interested in peace. But they have to start negotiating sometime. I hope the Israeli prime minister then will realise that taking some immediate measures that lift the sorrows of the Palestinians increases the chance of a successful agreement.

Marty

P.S. I have to say that this was maybe the first time I agreed with an article posted by Lemonite. Thanks for finding that article.

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Old 04-25-2002, 10:40 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn:

P.S. I have to say that this was maybe the first time I agreed with an article posted by Lemonite. Thanks for finding that article.

I'm not writing this in any antagonistic sort of fashion, but ya don't have to stick this addendum into the post, You don't have to preface something by 'This is the First Time I agree With Lemonite', or '*SHOCK* I Actually Agree', Let's just consider it the first step into your enlightenment.. Hahaha.. But seriously, are ya'll afraid that if you agree with a strong conservative you'll end up being labeled as one?.. If you agree with my point, Then write in support of the issue.. If you disagree, then Disagree.. There's no need to try and 'Disclaim' Yourself. I'm not shitting on you, just trying to help you out.

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[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 04-25-2002).]
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Old 04-25-2002, 07:32 PM   #45
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Egypt ready to wage war on Israel ... for $US100 billion

April 25 2002
Egyptian Prime Minister Atef Ebeid said his country would go to war with Israel if Arab countries stumped up $US100 billion ($A186.32 billion) to pay for the confrontation, in an interview published yesterday.
"If you want to undertake an action and be ready to face up to challenges, you need at least $100 billion," he told the Abu Dhabi Government's Al-Ittihad newspaper when asked why Egypt had taken no measures against Israel's military offensive against the Palestinians.
"I told you we want $100 billion," he repeated in response to a question why Cairo had not expelled Israel's ambassador to Egypt.
"Let the Arab world give $100 billion from Arab funds deposited around the world. Let it say to Egypt: 'This is a budget for confrontation. This budget is at your disposal. Undertake confrontation,' " he said.
Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak accused Israel yesterday of going "beyond all limits" with its military actions in the West Bank, particularly in Bethlehem and Jenin.

Egypt became the first Arab country to make peace with Israel and signed a treaty in 1979. Protesters in Egypt have frequently called for cutting diplomatic ties with Israel and expelling the Israeli ambassador.
AFP


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