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Old 06-23-2005, 04:43 PM   #16
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America isn't perfect, and you're right, there is alot of things that need to be changed.

The problem is that the poll info you posted was taken from an incredibly corrupted country, much more corrupted than America.
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Old 06-23-2005, 04:46 PM   #17
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Originally posted by shart1780
America isn't perfect, and you're right, there is alot of things that need to be changed.

The problem is that the poll info you posted was taken from an incredibly corrupted country, much more corrupted than America.
We shall see if you have changed your view when the rest of the Abu Ghraib photos are publicised.

Watch this space, shart1780, watch this space.
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Old 06-23-2005, 04:51 PM   #18
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Originally posted by deep
so your standard is:

“hey, we are not as bad as Communist China" which is true.

you and I have vastly different expectations from our Government.
Deep, was this article about some people saying China is better than the US or not?

I was giving my opinion of the article, plain and simple.
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Old 06-23-2005, 04:53 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


I am now and have been for over thirty years a registered Republican.

Ah, you got me there; though I am curious - in what ways do your views line up with Republicans?
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Old 06-23-2005, 04:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


We shall see if you have changed your view when the rest of the Abu Ghraib photos are publicised.

Watch this space, shart1780, watch this space.
fg, so what you're saying is that abuse heaped upon terrorists by soldiers at a prison is worse than executing dissidents and Christians,and the mistreatment of women,including forced abortions?
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Old 06-23-2005, 04:57 PM   #21
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fg, so what you're saying is that abuse heaped upon terrorists by soldiers at a prison is worse than executing dissidents and Christians,and the mistreatment of women,including forced abortions?
No, I am saying that child rape and murders of women which seemingly went on at Abu Ghraib is worse or as bad as executing dissidents and Christians.

That is what I am saying.

Please do not misintrepret my comments.
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Old 06-23-2005, 05:02 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


perhaps it is because China is making reforms in the right direction

and the Bush Administration is going the other way

but, if your standard is:

“hey, we are not as bad as Communist China" which is true.
then, you and I have vastly different expectations from our Government.

I agree with you here deep. China is still a nation with huge civil rights problems along with social problems but they had isolated themselves from the world for hundreds of years, were promptly exploited by the British Empire and then invaded by Japan, only to regress to a communist sheltered society which is a billion strong with a homogenous society. I'm not making excuses for China but it is a nation heading in the right direction especially compared to their recent past. China ain't no North Korea.

The United States has a rich democratic past, with a civil war, but they have been openly involved in the world through trade and commerce for centuries. Freedom has been an enduring message from America. But this administration has taken the US in a direction which is backwards and regressive. The Patriot Act, the President being given the power to declare war without approval from Congress, the Iraq war, Gitmo, capital punishment, numerous civilian deaths and military mistakes leading to innocent deaths. This all leads to many people feeling that the US seems to have lost its way in the world. We have an expectation of the US, and the Bush administration is not living up to it thus the kind of results seen in this poll.

No one is writing off America. Polls are bullshit half the time anyway but I am pretty sure America will regain its stature in the world in the near future.
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Old 06-23-2005, 05:02 PM   #23
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
In other words, people are very fickle and/or don't know of the Horrors of China:

*The fore-mentioned jail and excecution of people who share their faith
*The fore-mention jail and execution of government dissidents
*The horrendous treatment of women
Sounds like Saudi Arabia.

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Old 06-23-2005, 05:03 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


look at your watch - it's 2005
Answer my question.

when Clinton's feds stormed the Koresh compound, Guns-a-blazing, did you speak against it?

How about Ruby Ridge - when Clinton's feds shot 13 year old Sammy Weaver in the back and unarmed Vicky Weaver in the head, killing them both?

Or how about when Clinton's Feds stormtrooped the house of Elian Gonzales on Easter Weekend, violating federal law that prohibits armed entry of that variety unless danger is reasonable suspected?

So here's the point - the Clinton administration did far worse to its own people by abusing it powers than what Bush has even been accused of. Did you speak against that?
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Old 06-23-2005, 05:04 PM   #25
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Sounds like Saudi Arabia.

Melon
It does, and I have no earthly idea why America is so buddy-buddy with them. But that didn't started with Dubya.
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Old 06-23-2005, 05:05 PM   #26
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It does, and I have no earthly idea why America is so buddy-buddy with them.
You don't need to wonder why. It's oil.

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Old 06-23-2005, 05:08 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


No, I am saying that child rape and murders of women which seemingly went on at Abu Ghraib is worse or as bad as executing dissidents and Christians.

That is what I am saying.

Please do not misintrepret my comments.
"Seemingly went on". Can't misinterpret that.

And even if it did happen, it was by a small group of soldiers, and was not endorsed, commanded, or condoned by the Bush Admin.

The forced abortions and executions of Christians and Diisidents was the Chinese governement.

There's a world of difference between atrocities committed by a group of soldiers and attrocities committed by a government.
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Old 06-23-2005, 05:13 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


"Seemingly went on". Can't misinterpret that.

And even if it did happen, it was by a small group of soldiers, and was not endorsed, commanded, or condoned by the Bush Admin.

The forced abortions and executions of Christians and Diisidents was the Chinese governement.

There's a world of difference between atrocities committed by a group of soldiers and attrocities committed by a government.
No there is not a 'world of difference'. Abu Ghraib was operated by US government personnel in the payroll of US military. You call them 'soldiers', I call them criminals/mercenaries. Anyway.

So there is no essential difference, except possibly one of scale, i.e., I would assume that China has executed more dissidents than the US.
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Old 06-23-2005, 06:34 PM   #29
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There is a world of difference. People are being prosecuted and imprisoned by the federal government for their part in this. Does the Chinese Government imprison their soldiers for their crimes? Of course not, because it is the Chinese Government that gave the orders in the first place.

I am not saying that what these criminal soldiers did was any better than the murder of dissidents and Christians.

What I am saying is that theer is a difference, especially since we are talking about governments here.
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Old 06-23-2005, 06:37 PM   #30
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Yes there's a huge difference and there's also a huge difference in standards.
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