Bush backs down from the Road Map - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-18-2004, 05:16 AM   #16
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
I would be interested in what Israelis think of this. The people at the BBC seem to be really nervous about the consequences of this.
I think that's interesting too. Often people have a tendency to forget that not everyone in Israel supports Sharon's policies. There are many people in Israel who believe that peace isn't going to be achieved through more violence on the part of Israel.
__________________

__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 04-18-2004, 05:28 AM   #17
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 06:04 AM
Well I can say that Israel's policy of assassination does a favour to Arafat and the PA in general. By decapitating Hamas leadership before the a withrdrawl Sharon is ensuring that the authority that takes control is not going to be extremist/islamist. This should be seen for what it is, the execution of a man who is directly linked to the murder of innocent civilians in order to give the unilateral withdrawl a greater chance of success.

Try to rationalize it this way: Remove Hamas ----> Reduce suicide bombings and save Israeli lives ----> Reduce need for retalliation because of suicide bombings ----> reduce IDF incursions and hence reduce palestinian deaths ----> higher chance for a long term peace to be reached.

I will also say that the Palestinians would NOT be in this position if the sheer corruption within the PA was adressed and they actually got leaders who were more interested in peace than lining their pockets with stolen palestinian money. How long will we have to wait until Arafat is removed from the equation and there is somebody who can intitiate positive actions that result in real peace.
__________________

__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 04-18-2004, 08:43 AM   #18
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 03:04 PM
Now let me understand this, because they are leaders of a terrorist organization this is considered Assassination.

If a commanding officer in an army unit were killed would this also be called assasination?

This guy was the leader of a terrorist/military organization, so therefore in my mind it is not an assasination.

And I do sincerely believe that those opposed to this are interested in painting it as an assassination for shock value and for public opinion purposes. It most definitely is wrong to call this an assassination and lump him in the same group as Ghandi and MLK.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 04-18-2004, 09:34 AM   #19
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Popmartijn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 32,543
Local Time: 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Now let me understand this, because they are leaders of a terrorist organization this is considered Assassination.
Nope, that's not the reason.

Quote:
If a commanding officer in an army unit were killed would this also be called assasination?
If that person would be killed in an operation specifically aimed at killing him, yes that's also an assassination. As said before in this thread, it does not place any specific value on the action, it's just how you call something like that.
Here's the explanation by the Merriam-Webster dictionairy:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...nation&x=0&y=0
Quote:
1 : to injure or destroy unexpectedly and treacherously
2 : to murder by sudden or secret attack usually for impersonal reasons
It does not matter who the person killed was, it is the act itself that's called that way.

Quote:

And I do sincerely believe that those opposed to this are interested in painting it as an assassination for shock value and for public opinion purposes. It most definitely is wrong to call this an assassination and lump him in the same group as Ghandi and MLK.
I agree that the person killed in the attack is not related in any way with Ghandi or MLK regarding stature or character or whatever. The only thing those three have in common is that all three were assassinated. And that's all that binds them.
__________________
Popmartijn is offline  
Old 04-18-2004, 10:17 AM   #20
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 03:04 PM
So you would define the "undeclared war" between Hammas and Israel as "impersonal".

Any attack surprise attack during a war would fit the definition.

Key is impersonal.....and this was personal on both sides.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 04-18-2004, 10:47 AM   #21
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 08:04 PM
I thought an assassination was a politically motivated killing. I agree that this guy was a and he shouldn't be put in a group with Gandhi or MLK. I'm not sure knocking off a political figure is the best Middle East policy. That part of the world is volatile and violent anyway. Not all Israelis are liking these developments.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 04-18-2004, 10:52 AM   #22
Refugee
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tel-Aviv, Israel
Posts: 1,300
Local Time: 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


So you do support it?

I don't know where people get the idea that Israel's actions aren't in any way responsible for Palestinian people's resentment of Israel. When Israel imposes curfews preventing Palestinians from going to school or work or even outside of their home, it causes resentment. When Israel bombs cities in Gaza, killing innocent people, it causes resentment. When Israeli soldiers shoot Palestinian children it causes resentment. And yes, when Israel assassinates the leader of Hamas it causes resentment.

You can debate whether those actions are justified or not, but don't try to pretend they don't influence the Palestinian people's opinions about Israel.
I'm Israeli and EXTREMELY proud of my country......and of our armed forces for the metting out of justice against the leader of one of the bloodiest terrorist organizations in the world.

Rantisi had the blood of hundreds of Israelis on his hands - including women and children....don't waste a single moment mourning for him OR for his predecesor(sp?) who was supposedly a man of god.

You mention that OUR actions cause resentment - as if WE'RE the ones who started this cycle of violence. EVERY single action that Israel has taken has been in answer to a murderous attack against our people.

Yes, unfortunately, innocent Palestinian citizens get hurt and killed in these actions BUT they are NEVER targeted by our military (unlike the terrorists who deliberately go after our civillian population).

The terrorists have their hiding places hidden among the civiliian population, without any regard whatsoever for the lives that they are putting in danger, and then when Israel responds to their aggression, they (the Palestinians) then use the fact that civillians were killed to condem the Israeli "Massacres".

Since the impotent Palestinian "authority" is not willing to deal with the terrorists of the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad themselve, it is up to US to avenge the murder of our people. The ONLY way to deal with these monsters is to dispose of them by any means possible.

Please don't let this post give you the impression that I'm a war-monger - I'm NOT. I am a peace-loving Israeli citizen who is sick and tired of seeing the cheering throngs who celebrate each attack against us with mass rallies led by the terrorists brandishing their guns.....

Did you see any Israelis dancing in the streets when Sheikh Yassin was taken care of? Did you see mass rallies celebrating the deaths of Rantisi and the others whom we put out of action??? NO you didn't - because that is NOT our nature. We mourn every innocent life that is lost on both sides of this never-ending conflict BUT these murdering butchers do NOT deserve a second thought.

Tonight Israel marks the eve of Holocaust Remembrance day, where we remember the slaughter of 6 million Jews in Europe and elsewhere. The slogan for this evening is "Never Again...." and I think that speaks for itself.

We will defend ourselves and our right to exist and, despite efforts to the contrary, Israel will CONTINUE to exist long after our enemies have all been dealt with.

To repeat what I said at the beginning.....I am very proud of my country and I applaud the actions of our military.

Shalom.
__________________
AchtungBono is offline  
Old 04-18-2004, 10:53 AM   #23
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 07:04 AM
I agree with those definitions of an assassination. It's not like calling this an assassination as well is an insult to what people like MLK and Ghandi did, as there is nothing positive in their murders either.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 04-18-2004, 11:07 AM   #24
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 08:04 PM
Thanks, AchtungBono, I wanted a post from Israel! I have a friend in Tel Aviv. I understand that Israel has to defend itself against suicide bombers and carriers of madness and hatred in general. I'm not in any position to understand what to do about all of this damn stuff.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 04-18-2004, 11:34 AM   #25
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
I agree with those definitions of an assassination. It's not like calling this an assassination as well is an insult to what people like MLK and Ghandi did, as there is nothing positive in their murders either.
So you would say this is impersonal?

How can the actions of both parties be described as impersonal?
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 04-18-2004, 11:34 AM   #26
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
You mention that OUR actions cause resentment - as if WE'RE the ones who started this cycle of violence.
I made no judgement about who started the violence between Israel and Palestine. I simply think it's wrong to suggest that Israel's actions don't cause resentment among Palestinians. Of course the Palestinian people feel resentment towards Israel when they live under an Israeli-imposed curfew or when the IDF drops bombs in Gaza city or yes, when the two Hamas leaders are assassinated in as many months. As I said before, you can debate whether these actions are justified or not, but I don't think you can suggest that they don't cause resentment among Palestinians.

I also don't know where people get the idea that anyone who condemns the assassination must do so because they support Hamas or believe that Rantissi was a "good" person. Many people condemn the assassination because they think it is a further step away from peace and will only serve to escalate the conflict. Since you say you support the assassination, can you perhaps explain how you think it's likely to further the peace process? (That's a genuine question -- I'd just like to hear what you think.)
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 04-18-2004, 11:35 AM   #27
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 03:04 PM
I'd like to know where anyone said that if condemn it that you support Hammas.

I just have a problem calling it assassination. I think it is a shock value statement.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 04-18-2004, 11:41 AM   #28
The Fly
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Israel
Posts: 112
Local Time: 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
You mention that OUR actions cause resentment - as if WE'RE the ones who started this cycle of violence.
It doesn't matter anymore who started this. This isn't a case of two little kids arguing and than trying to blame each other (tough sometimes this exact comparison is made). This is a horrific and violent conflict that causes death of innocents on both sides. The fact is that everything that we do affects them and everything that they do affects us. If you are not free to move as you wish on the streets I'm sure you will resent those who are 'responsible' for it. The same goes for accidental deaths of kids it's not on purpose, that's true, but it doesn't really matter to the Palestinians. We're not talking now about right or wrong, but on the impact itself.

I can't say I'm saddened by his death, I'm sure some of the people I knew who were murdered in terror attacks died directly because of him, but I'm afraid of the consequences. After Yassin's death, individuals who were not connected to the terror groups started taking actions (attacking people on the street with an axe, stabbing people with knives and etc.). We have enough of the organized terror (I'm a bit uncomfortable with the term...).

And another thing, it's not the first time an important figure of a terror group is assassinated (including leaders) has it really made things better?
__________________
sarit is offline  
Old 04-18-2004, 11:48 AM   #29
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,016
Local Time: 09:04 PM
what's the shock value of naming something accordingly to that words description?
__________________
“Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.”
~Frank Zappa
Salome is offline  
Old 04-18-2004, 01:28 PM   #30
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 03:04 PM
I guess we can disagree then that that is what it was. I do not believe the definition holds.
__________________

__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com