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Old 12-22-2004, 07:35 AM   #1
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Bush Approved Torture Techniques

http://207.44.245.159/article7524.htm

FBI E-Mail Refers to Presidential Order Authorizing Inhumane Interrogation Techniques

Newly Obtained FBI Records Call Defense Department’s Methods "Torture," Express Concerns Over "Cover-Up" That May Leave FBI "Holding the Bag" for Abuses

12/20/04 "ACLU" -- NEW YORK -- A document released for the first time today by the American Civil Liberties Union suggests that President Bush issued an Executive Order authorizing the use of inhumane interrogation methods against detainees in Iraq.

Also released by the ACLU today are a slew of other records including a December 2003 FBI e-mail that characterizes methods used by the Defense Department as "torture" and a June 2004 "Urgent Report" to the Director of the FBI that raises concerns that abuse of detainees is being covered up.

"These documents raise grave questions about where the blame for widespread detainee abuse ultimately rests," said ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero. "Top government officials can no longer hide from public scrutiny by pointing the finger at a few low-ranking soldiers."

The documents were obtained after the ACLU and other public interest organizations filed a lawsuit against the government for failing to respond to a Freedom of Information Act request.

The two-page e-mail that references an Executive Order states that the President directly authorized interrogation techniques including sleep deprivation, stress positions, the use of military dogs, and "sensory deprivation through the use of hoods, etc." The ACLU is urging the White House to confirm or deny the existence of such an order and immediately to release the order if it exists. The FBI e-mail, which was sent in May 2004 from "On Scene Commander--Baghdad" to a handful of senior FBI officials, notes that the FBI has prohibited its agents from employing the techniques that the President is said to have authorized.

Another e-mail, dated December 2003, describes an incident in which Defense Department interrogators at Guantánamo Bay impersonated FBI agents while using "torture techniques" against a detainee. The e-mail concludes "If this detainee is ever released or his story made public in any way, DOD interrogators will not be held accountable because these torture techniques were done [sic] the ‘FBI’ interrogators. The FBI will [sic] left holding the bag before the public."
...

The documents referenced above can be found at: http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/fbi.html.

More on the lawsuit can be found at: http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: media@aclu.org

This may change things a bit.
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Old 12-22-2004, 07:55 AM   #2
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is it true that rumsfeld said that torture cant be viewed as torture if you do it to gain the necessary information to do good? something like that. if he did say that it just doesnt make any sense.
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Old 12-22-2004, 09:35 AM   #3
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Ah well, at least Bush writes down his own signature.

/sarcasm
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:11 AM   #4
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I can't wait to see STING2 come in and defend this one.

:: gets the popcorn ready ::
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Old 12-22-2004, 11:42 AM   #5
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Any member of this forum can "choose to or choose not to" reply to any thread or post in here.

I don't think members should be singled out.
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Old 12-22-2004, 11:56 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
I can't wait to see STING2 come in and defend this one.

:: gets the popcorn ready ::

LOL, Pax.

I get you also deep, but in my mind some things just shouldn't be defended. Torture excused by my President is one of them
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Old 12-22-2004, 03:19 PM   #7
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So if I challenge this I am defending torture?

I have reveiwed EVERY SINGLE one of the files used to type this article.

NOT ONE came from the President. Not one indicated permission or approval of the President.

Quite frankly, most seemed to me to be quite damning of the poeple who committed these acts, and demonstrates good faith on the part of the governe3ment to investigate and fix the problem.

I may have made a mistake by skipping the article and going right to the documents they cited.

Any chance that someone here can find the article that implicates the President or the White House in this?

Just curious, because I will be right there with you asking for impeachment.

Maybe I missed it, I have been known to read too quickly.

Please...someone go to the list and help me find the evidence.

If you find it, link to it, and I will be there with you.
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Old 12-22-2004, 03:20 PM   #8
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Any chance they are referring to the Gosalves research on the matter. Having read that extensively, there was nothing in there that seemed to indicate it was alright to burn people.
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Old 12-22-2004, 03:30 PM   #9
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More than EVER I am convinced that the memo does not convict the White House of anything.

The FBI memo clearly states that there ARE legal techniques that are allowed to be used.

That the things at ABU G went beyond the Presidential Authority of the Executive order.

That the people who participated in them were removed.

That the DOE had put in place new restrictions to prevent the abuse from happeneing again.


I don't know, but having read what I have read and knowing about eh Gonsalves memo and read it, I would say that there is nothing here but hot air.

http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/rele....4940_4941.pdf

And here is the memo in question.
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Old 12-22-2004, 03:36 PM   #10
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It is the only memo, of the entire list that mentions any executive order.....and I approve of the use of the techniques that were mentioned within reason.

I do not approve of any extension beyond the legal authority of the Presidential order.

So far, nothing in that entire list approves of TORTURE techniques. None of the memos define the Executive Order as torture techniques. The FBI memo clearly states that None of the FBI Participated in the techniques authorized by the EO, however, they did not witness any abuse while they were there for three rotations.

The President did not authorize torture, did not authorize what went on, and clearly, according to the memos took steps to make sure it did not happen again.
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Old 12-22-2004, 03:41 PM   #11
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I hope that if he did approve TORTURE that the documents emerge that prove it.

This does not.
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Old 12-22-2004, 03:57 PM   #12
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I agree Dread, however to have a memo running among the FBI referencing the President seem to at the very least the appearance of confusion among the ranks.
WHile the WH has denied the order, I find it very plausable and even characteristic. The orders for the Sec OD can't be debated in my mind.
I saw the Press Conference from Myers & Rummy today. He actually looked rather scared but gave the same shit response that "even tents can be blown up" the same crap as humvee's and supply trucks. He is a piece of shit and should be brought up on charges.

Have you read or seen the response of the Iraq opposition to the "Bring it on" shit is going to get much worse and I'm not sure that even carpet bombing the country will work.
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Old 12-22-2004, 04:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
I agree Dread, however to have a memo running among the FBI referencing the President seem to at the very least the appearance of confusion among the ranks.
I do not buy that it was confusion. I served with good people, I served with shitty people. Unfortunately, I think there may have been a bunch of shitty people all in one place taking things too far. Too far in a direction that people should not have to be told it is right or wrong. I do not feel the President can be held accountable for that.

I want the troops home. We were not supposed to be there to rebuild a democracy. We were supposed to be there because of WMD. I am so in shock that there were none. I keep hoping I am going to wake up and find out otherwise.

In my heart what is going on over there now has nothing to do with the oath I took when I joined the service.

In my heart I would be so fucking pissed that the end is not in sight.
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Old 12-22-2004, 04:10 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


I do not buy that it was confusion. I served with good people, I served with shitty people. Unfortunately, I think there may have been a bunch of shitty people all in one place taking things too far. Too far in a direction that people should not have to be told it is right or wrong. I do not feel the President can be held accountable for that.

I want the troops home. We were not supposed to be there to rebuild a democracy. We were supposed to be there because of WMD. I am so in shock that there were none. I keep hoping I am going to wake up and find out otherwise.

In my heart what is going on over there now has nothing to do with the oath I took when I joined the service.

In my heart I would be so fucking pissed that the end is not in sight.
The stories are coming from so many locations though. How did it happen in gitmo, Iraq in many locations, Afganistan, now the secret planes taking prisoners to Egypt ect. It's like the leaks eek out so no major scandal breaks, but it sure looks systemic to me.

Actually I feel for you as a veteran, I have many in my family. I hate what I see happening day after day to our people and to the Iraqi's. I don't feel at all superior in any way for opposing the war from the get go, I only fell immense sadness for the families on both sides, my country, and further tarnishment in my views of the greatness of America.
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Old 12-22-2004, 04:38 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I hope that if he did approve TORTURE that the documents emerge that prove it.

This does not.

So we need a confession from the administation, a signed, affidavit.

Where is Ken Starr
when he could actually do some good.
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