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Old 02-16-2003, 06:06 PM   #16
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STING2 - I just wanted to add that I wasn't trying to belittle you; I was simply trying to show you this guy knows what he's talking about, and that he's had a lot of experience both academically and practically in world affairs and military strategy. My intentions were good, but the way I went about it was rather thoughtless. Once again, I apologize for that.
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Old 02-16-2003, 06:39 PM   #17
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Michael,

No problem. I don't think you were really intending to discredit me, but it was kind of vague and I didn't want to go down the road of who knows what or is more experienced etc. I try approach Free Your Mind from the perspective that everyone is equal and has something very valuable to contribute to the debate, regardless of the political beliefs and conclusions on various topics. I am sure that the writer is well informed and very knowledgable on foreign affairs and military strategy. I still disagree with his conclusions. I read a lot of articles by various professional people. Some of them I disagree with others I agree with.
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Old 02-17-2003, 06:41 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
My father fought in the Vietnam War, and US bombing saved the lives of many South Vietnamese civilians and US soldiers.

What about the lives of the Vietnamese civilians tortured and killed in search of the Vietkong troops? What about the secret "Phoenix"-like operations?

But right, all in the name of being on the right side. *sarcasm*
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Old 02-17-2003, 10:07 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
My father fought in the Vietnam War, and US bombing saved the lives of many South Vietnamese civilians and US soldiers.
STING,but the bombing also killed someone...???
Excuse me,but I just don't get it.
(Yes,there's sarcasm in my words,but I hope you understand
that doesn't refer to you father and you don't take it too personally ).
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Old 02-17-2003, 12:07 PM   #20
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Old 02-17-2003, 12:16 PM   #21
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I fail to see what your father fighting in the Vietnam war has to do with it.

Bottom line, the US, including your father, should not have been there in the first place. If they werent there, there would have been no need for bombings to save them.

But everyone makes mistakes in their life.

Many others refused to go fight in Vietnam and were incarcerated for standing by their convictions.

Or they came to Canada.
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Old 02-17-2003, 03:44 PM   #22
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Gabrielvox,

It has very little to do with it was just in reference to a more indirect comment about the subject matter here. Well its your opinion that my father and others should not have been there. My father and the others who served there believe in what they fought for and did their best to protect South Vietnames people.


Aine,

Yes, the bombing killed many Vietcong and North Vietnames soldiers as well as innocent civilians. That is what unfortunately happens in war.

U2girl,

"What about the lives of the Vietnamese civilians tortured and killed in search of the Vietkong troops? What about the secret "Phoenix"-like operations?"

I certainly don't agree with targeting and killing innocent civilians and any that did so are war criminals. But it was not US policy to simply indiscriminitely kill innocent civilians. Doing so had no political or military benefit to the United States. Aside from the war crimes committed by some individuals, the Vietnam War had more restrictions on the use of military force than any other war in US history. Thats where the term, "fighting with a war with one arm behind your back" comes from.
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Old 02-17-2003, 04:00 PM   #23
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How 'bout Vietnam for intentionally killing civilians?
Uh, how about the atomic bombs used on Japan in WWII for intentionally killing civilians?
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Old 02-17-2003, 04:06 PM   #24
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Yup.. originally the former capital of Japan, Osaka, was Target #1 due to the immense psychological blow of killing that many civilians, but then it was ruled out due to an aversion to international condemnation that would have likely ensued. Of course Hiroshima was no better but it did have some distinction of having munitions factories there so it was easier for them to try paint it as a 'military town', thus a somewhat more 'valid' target.
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Old 02-18-2003, 04:18 AM   #25
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Had the US not dropped "the Bomb" America would have been forced to invade Japan to end the war, given the mindset of the Japanese leadership at the time. Civilian casualties from such an invasion would have made the body count at Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like a drive by shooting.
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Old 02-18-2003, 04:41 AM   #26
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I used to believe what I was spoon fed.Then I did some independent research and found out everything I was told was not neccesarily correct.
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Old 02-18-2003, 08:31 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
My father and the others who served there believe in what they fought for and did their best to protect South Vietnames people.


But it was not US policy to simply indiscriminitely kill innocent civilians.
1) is wrong. Your father and some others who served there may have believed in what they fought for. But you canīt say My father and the others...; implying that everyone who fought there believed in what they were told to fight for.

Some (I think many, but for sure some) American soldiers in Vietnam didnīt believe in what they were told to fight for. One example is Jimi Hendrix. You may find some more examples on the Memorial in Washington DC, but I canīt quote them, because they are dead.

2) It was US policy to kill innocent people in my opinion. I canīt prove that, because access to those documents will never be allowed. But I can tell you it is very likely. Some American soldiers may have flipped out with the atrocities and cruelties of a war, simply got crazy and killed some civilians. Some, in my opinion, have been told to do so. The tactics in Vietnam was to weaken the country and its inhabitants in every possible way. To kill civilians intentionally is a fine method to weaken the country. With all the war crimes that were commited, I believe this was an official policy.

Please take your time and reply to 1) and 2), STING2. You may disagree with 2), but you surely canīt disagree with 1), can you? If you can, I would urge you to do a research amongst Vietnam Veterans - you can question 1000 of them, and I would be interested in what they have to say about their beliefs.
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Old 02-18-2003, 03:03 PM   #28
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HIPHOP,

#1 Yes, not everyone who served in Vietnam has the same view of the war as my father and the many I have talked to and received recommendations from. Trust, me I have done plenty of research in this area and talked with many people.

#2 It was not US policy to indiscriminately kill civilians in Vietnam. There were certainly individuals who engaged in such criminal activity, but it was not US policy. If it had been, most of the country and people would have been killed in only a few months.

US strategy in Vietnam was about winning hearts and minds, not killing them or giving them reason to support the enemy.

By the way, if you want to look into war crimes, how about taking a look at what North Vietnames and Vietcong soldiers did throughout the Vietnam War to South Vietnames civlians and US POWs.
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Old 02-18-2003, 06:53 PM   #29
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Quote:
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By the way, if you want to look into war crimes, how about taking a look at what North Vietnames and Vietcong soldiers did throughout the Vietnam War to South Vietnames civlians and US POWs.
So? To say it in your words, they were only defending their country, werenīt they? In a war, shit happens. Sure enough, they tried to avoid to kill civilians, didnīt they?

Donīt take that serious, sure they have committed crimes- but thatīs the bad thing about war in general. This is one of the reasons why Iīm generally against war.
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Old 02-18-2003, 10:51 PM   #30
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Innocent people sometimes get killed in your local community when policemen enforce the law. Are you saying they should refrain from enforcing the law because sometimes they have to take actions that may result in accidents which hurt innocent people?
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