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Old 01-02-2008, 07:29 PM   #76
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And the point of the map is that we'd be safer without surveillance cameras in malls, banks or police cars? Better off without GPS satellites or tracking cookies on web pages? More free without those Kroger, Best Buy or Walgreens shopping cards that keep a record of your purchases? What do they consider surveillance?

Personally, I'd be more worried about your neighbor looking through your window with his binoculars or listening to your cordless phone on his radio scanner, the kid trying to hack into your computer or the hundreds of millions of cellphone and video cameras out there able to record you... without you knowing it.
(don't tase me bro!)
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:13 PM   #77
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It basically measures how the governments are protecting our privacy with measures that go far beyond some surveillance cameras, like saving all your internet, telephone and mobile connections for half a year, or longer, wiretapping phones and then asking a judge for permission, and gathering information on every single citizen that are of highly questionable use for them.

What you are doing with your Kroger purchases is your own problem, it's about state surveillance of each and every step you make.
Knowing that my country is trying to re-activate Stasi methods is making me far more uncomfortable.


And if she is young and nice, she may well look through my window as long as she wishes for.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:45 PM   #78
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega


And if she is young and nice, she may well look through my window as long as she wishes for.
Well, you and your schwanzstucker may end up on YouTube.
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Old 01-02-2008, 11:20 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
And the point of the map is that we'd be safer without surveillance cameras in malls, banks or police cars? Better off without GPS satellites or tracking cookies on web pages? More free without those Kroger, Best Buy or Walgreens shopping cards that keep a record of your purchases? What do they consider surveillance?
I think the point of the map is more along the lines of this - using private security contractors to spy on Americans:

http://www.alternet.org/story/69105/
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Old 01-03-2008, 01:53 AM   #80
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a National Applications Office (NAO) will be established to coordinate how the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and domestic law enforcement and rescue agencies use imagery and communications intelligence picked up by U.S. spy satellites. If the plan goes forward, the NAO will create the legal mechanism for an unprecedented degree of domestic intelligence gathering that would make the United States one of the world's most closely monitored nations.
Look, I've done my own "threat assessment" on the likelihood of GWB abusing his powers to take away the constitutional rights of any U.S. citizens.
It comes back -- "VERY LOW."
Now maybe I'm a naïve idiot, but if I'm going to worry about anything than it would be the very real possibility that I (and most working Americans) will see our taxes go up, our healthcare system socialized, and our military weakened in the very near future; not that George Bush can use spy satellites to monitor what I'm cooking on my Weber grill this summer.
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:23 AM   #81
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I'd say most people would do an assessment and it would come back "HAS AND WILL CONTINUE TO."
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:34 AM   #82
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Originally posted by INDY500


Look, I've done my own "threat assessment" on the likelihood of GWB abusing his powers to take away the constitutional rights of any U.S. citizens.
It comes back -- "VERY LOW."
Tend to agree with INDY here. As much as I dislike GWB, I really don't think we're anywhere near the level of a " big brother is watching" type society nor do I think we're headed there any time soon.
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Old 01-03-2008, 10:22 AM   #83
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[q]A letter come blowin' in
On an ill wind
Somethin' 'bout me and you
Never seein' one another again
And what I knew had come
Stars struck deaf and dumb
Like when we kissed
That taste of blood on your tongue

Don't worry, darlin'
No baby, don't you fret
We're livin' in the future
And none of this has happened yet
Don't worry, darlin'
No baby, don't you fret
We're livin' in the future
And none of this has happened yet

Woke up election day
Sky's gunpowder and shades of grey
Beneath the dirty sun
I whistle my time away
Then just about sun down
You come walkin' through town
Your boot heels clickin' like
The barrel of a pistol spinnin' round

Don't worry, darlin'
No baby, don't you fret
We're livin' in the future
And none of this has happened yet
Don't worry, darlin'
No baby, don't you fret
We're livin' in the future
And none of this has happened yet

The earth it gave away
The sea rose towards the sun
I opened up my heart to you
It got all damaged and undone
My ship Liberty sailed away
On a bloody red horizon
The groundskeeper opened the gates
And let the wild dogs run

Alone I limp through town
A lost cowboy at sundown
Got my monkey on a leash
Got my ear tuned to the ground
My faith's been torn asunder
Tell me is that rollin' thunder
Or just the sinkin' sound
Of somethin' righteous goin' under

Don't worry, darlin'
No baby, don't you fret
We're livin' in the future
And none of this has happened yet
Don't worry, darlin'
No baby, don't you fret
We're livin' in the future
And none of this has happened yet[/q]
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:01 AM   #84
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Originally posted by maycocksean


Tend to agree with INDY here. As much as I dislike GWB, I really don't think we're anywhere near the level of a " big brother is watching" type society nor do I think we're headed there any time soon.
It's largely invisible and unpublicized so far, but it's happening. How about things like the Total Information Awareness project? If that's not Orwellian-sounding, I don't know what is. They may not be peering into homes (yet), but everything involving banking, email, internert, and telephone is known.
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:21 PM   #85
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Originally posted by INDY500


Look, I've done my own "threat assessment" on the likelihood of GWB abusing his powers to take away the constitutional rights of any U.S. citizens.
It comes back -- "VERY LOW."
Just poking in to point out another fantasy of the right: They forget that someday the powers they give their friends will be the powers their enemies can use against them.
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Old 01-03-2008, 01:37 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by ntalwar


It's largely invisible and unpublicized so far, but it's happening. How about things like the Total Information Awareness project? If that's not Orwellian-sounding, I don't know what is. They may not be peering into homes (yet), but everything involving banking, email, internert, and telephone is known.
I believe in an omniscient God so maybe I don't have quite the level of expectation in regards to privacy that others do.

However, I'm very aware that governments can abuse technology and their powers in regards to privacy. And it can be right here in America. We know that the Kennedy administration illegally wiretapped civil rights leaders in the 60's, the McCarthy trials of the 50's got out of hand, Nixon had an enemies list, and that the Clinton administration keep a database on Churches and pro-life groups under VAAPCON.

But these aren't conspiracies, they are abuses of power for political reasons. And they have existed since the Egyptian pharos employed agents of espionage to expose disloyal subjects or the Romans instituted the first census I suppose.

And it should be noted that these very same administrations used the very same technology to catch criminals, breakup organized crime syndicates, and to uncover spy rings and drug cartels. So it's not that governments spy on it's citizens, they always have, it's what they do with the information.
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Old 01-03-2008, 02:15 PM   #87
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So it's not that governments spy on it's citizens, they always have, it's what they do with the information.
Um, no it's both.

Status quo isn't an excuse. Because "they always have" doesn't mean shit to me.
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Old 01-03-2008, 04:39 PM   #88
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Originally posted by INDY500
But these aren't conspiracies, they are abuses of power for political reasons. And they have existed since the Egyptian pharos employed agents of espionage to expose disloyal subjects or the Romans instituted the first census I suppose.

And it should be noted that these very same administrations used the very same technology to catch criminals, breakup organized crime syndicates, and to uncover spy rings and drug cartels. So it's not that governments spy on it's citizens, they always have, it's what they do with the information.
So, as long as we get the OK from you, it shouldn't matter to us? We should just trust that they won't misuse the information?

Here's the bottom line, very clearly: the Right gives the government waaaaaaaaay too much credit.

(You know, if it's a Republican in the White House, of course.)
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:56 PM   #89
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Has the Bush administration overreached in terms of invading civil liberties? Absolutely.

But the hyperbolic idea that we're living on the brink of a Soviet-style surveillance state--I just don't see compelling evidence for that. Insisting on extreme scenarios makes it more difficult to argue against the real and serious violations that are actually taking place.

If it were as bad some are implying it is, some FYM posters would be mysteriously disappearing, as the government spiesbecame aware of their anti-Bush views.

(Though I admit, I have often suspected STING/Strongbow is in the employ of the U.S. government, planted in FYM to spread pro-administration propaganda. . . )
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:45 AM   #90
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Has the Bush administration overreached in terms of invading civil liberties? Absolutely.

Maybe, but as the debris in NYC and D.C. was being cleared the question people were asking then was why the government couldn't connect the dots to prevent this attack from happening.
That was over six years ago, doesn't that count for something?

Quote:
But the hyperbolic idea that we're living on the brink of a Soviet-style surveillance state--I just don't see compelling evidence for that. Insisting on extreme scenarios makes it more difficult to argue against the real and serious violations that are actually taking place.

If it were as bad some are implying it is, some FYM posters would be mysteriously disappearing, as the government spiesbecame aware of their anti-Bush views.
Exactly, if GWB is a fascist than surely he is the most incompetent fascist in history. In Fascist Amerika, the president's most vocal critics don't end up in a prison cell or in front of a firing squad, no, they end up on the bestseller lists, at the podium to accept their Oscar or on MSNBC at 8pm.
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