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Old 01-01-2008, 09:35 PM   #61
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Then in the spirit of the new year I'll retract it.

Happy New Years.
Same to you.
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Old 01-01-2008, 09:45 PM   #62
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I understand your point and you are correct, radical Islam can't be bombed, isolated, embargoed or entered into treaty with. It is, to be sure, a new type of War -- but a war nevertheless. And we are still in the process of discovering the most effective ways to win it. There are many ways to win a war of ideology.
What proof is there that it's a "War of ideology"? Why haven't there been attacks on churches if that's the case? Who says it's a war of ideology, and not one of land occupation or one of natural resources? Fox News?
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Old 01-01-2008, 10:46 PM   #63
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I don't accept your moral equivalency.

All "torture" is not equal.


but all torture gets you the same thing -- bad information. and it ushers in the sadists. and the good people leave. and it will destroy you from within before anyone destroys you from outside.
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Old 01-01-2008, 11:00 PM   #64
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9/11-- just a random attack by a group, totally unrelated to previous or subsequent attacks and with no underlying ideology. Well, if you believe that you should pooh-pooh the War on Terror I guess.
How does being unrelated to previous or subsequent attacks have anything to do with anything?


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The street is their battlefield. Civilian clothes their uniform.
Exactly. But how does that justify keeping possible innocent people in custody or torture?
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Old 01-01-2008, 11:00 PM   #65
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What proof is there that it's a "War of ideology"? Why haven't there been attacks on churches if that's the case? Who says it's a war of ideology, and not one of land occupation or one of natural resources? Fox News?
Don't take my word for it, read the Sept 07 message from bin Laden in which you will read:
Quote:
People of America: I shall be speaking to you on important topics which concern you, so lend me your ears. I begin by discussing the war which is between us and some of its repercussions for us and you."

... there are two solutions for stopping it. The first is from our side, and it is to continue to escalate the killing and fighting against you. This is our duty, and our brothers are carrying it out, and I ask Allah to grant them resolve and victory. And the second solution is from your side. It has now become clear to you and the entire world the impotence of the democratic system and how it plays with the interests of the peoples and their blood by sacrificing soldiers and populations to achieve the interests of the major corporations."

This is why I tell you: as you liberated yourselves before from the slavery of monks, kings, and feudalism, you should liberate yourselves from the deception, shackles and attrition of the capitalist system.

So it is imperative that you free yourselves from all of that and search for an alternative, upright methodology in which it is not the business of any class of humanity to lay down its own laws to its own advantage at the expense of the other classes as is the case with you, since the essence of man-made positive laws is that they serve the interests of those with the capital and thus make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

The infallible methodology is the methodology of Allah, the Most High, who created the heavens and earth and created the Creation and is the Most Kind and All-Informed and the Knower of the souls of His slaves and the methodology that best suits them.

To conclude, I invite you to embrace Islam, for the greatest mistake one can make in this world and one which is uncorrectable is to die while not surrendering to Allah, the Most High, in all aspects of one's life - ie., to die outside of Islam. And Islam means gain for you in this first life and the next, final life. The true religion is a mercy for people in their lives, filling their hearts with serenity and calm.

And it will also achieve your desire to stop the war as a consequence, because as soon as the warmongering owners of the major corporations realize that you have lost confidence in your democratic system and begun to search for an alternative, and that this alternative is Islam.
Let's see, throw away democracy, throw away capitalism and embrace Islam. Sounds kinda ideological doesn't it?
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Old 01-01-2008, 11:35 PM   #66
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Originally posted by INDY500

Don't take my word for it, read the Sept 07 message from bin Laden in which you will read:
Ever notice how a new tape surfaces at peculiar times?
He's dead according to Bhutto, but feel free to believe it.
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Old 01-01-2008, 11:40 PM   #67
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but all torture gets you the same thing -- bad information. and it ushers in the sadists. and the good people leave. and it will destroy you from within before anyone destroys you from outside.
Sorry, I know that's the talking point but it simply isn't true. Do you believe George Tenet when he says post-9/11 interrogations uncovered terror plots and saved lives? That they led to the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?
That the whole program was legal under U.S. law and that top members of Congress, including Nancy Pelosi, have been fully briefed since 2002.
It's a good argument to have, but labeling everything remotely harsh as "torture" while ignoring even the possibility of any benefit isn't really in our best interest is it?

Happy New Year by the way.
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Old 01-01-2008, 11:57 PM   #68
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Sorry, I know that's the talking point but it simply isn't true. Do you believe George Tenet when he says post-9/11 interrogations uncovered terror plots and saved lives? That they led to the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?
That the whole program was legal under U.S. law and that top members of Congress, including Nancy Pelosi, have been fully briefed since 2002.
It's a good argument to have, but labeling everything remotely harsh as "torture" while ignoring even the possibility of any benefit isn't really in our best interest is it?



i don't believe that there was information gathered through these "aggressive" techniques that could not have been acquired through legal means, and no one ever talks about the massive, massive wastes of time and money that has been spent investigating the bogus information coughed up by waterboarding.

are you going to believe the men who authorized these techniques? why wouldn't they attempt to justify their illegal actions?

don't forget, these techniques -- originated in countries run by Stalin and Pol Pot -- were precisely designed to extract FALSE confessions in totalitarian societies, not as a way to get workable information.

ever heard of SERE training?

and try googling Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libbi.

it's all part of the bigger plan. they use torture to get false confessions about other plots (shopping malls, banks, apartment buildings) that have no basis in reality, but then turn around and justify more "war" and more "techniques."

let's battle the real threats. we have neither the time nor the resources to torture new "threats" into existence.


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Happy New Year by the way.
and to you as well.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:24 AM   #69
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i don't believe that there was information gathered through these "aggressive" techniques that could not have been acquired through legal means, and no one ever talks about the massive, massive wastes of time and money that has been spent investigating the bogus information coughed up by waterboarding.

are you going to believe the men who authorized these techniques? why wouldn't they attempt to justify their illegal actions?
Legal means. First, I'd be with you if I truly thought this administration was breaking any laws. Second, it's so easy to forget how sure as a country we were that another attack of even greater scale was imminent. Remember how easily the Patriot Act sailed through Congress? Michael Moore and others love to lampoon "The Pet Goat" look on Bush's face as an aid whispered into his ear on that morning that our country may be under attack, but I only see a look of pain never experienced by a U. S. president before.
And I'm glad he said "not again on my watch."
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Old 01-02-2008, 01:17 AM   #70
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How does being unrelated to previous or subsequent attacks have anything to do with anything?




Exactly. But how does that justify keeping possible innocent people in custody or torture?
I'm glad you're living up to your MO Indy by not answering the questions asked of you...

Happy New Year!!!
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Old 01-02-2008, 01:25 AM   #71
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Originally posted by INDY500

Wasn't Nazism an ideology that used the resources of Germany to spread. One needn't be German to have been a Nazi after all. The 30 Years War was about ideology wasn't it. What of civil wars?
Ideology often motivates nations, but the war itself is with the nation, not with the ideology. The guns are fired at soldiers, the bombs dropped on strategic targets, not ways of thinking.

Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
I understand your point and you are correct, radical Islam can't be bombed, isolated, embargoed or entered into treaty with. It is, to be sure, a new type of War -- but a war nevertheless. And we are still in the process of discovering the most effective ways to win it. There are many ways to win a war of ideology.
I would suggest that there are better ways to fight ideology than through the use of war. I also wanted to point out that we're talking about the War on Terror but you mentioned above, radical Islam. But the war is supposed to be on "Terror", right? Or is it a War on Radical Islam? (guess that wouldn't have sold as well in the marketplace of ideas)

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Originally posted by INDY500
Do you have to be Muslim? As tragic as OKC was, when terrorists start shouting "McVeigh" as they martyr themselves in place of "Allah" then we can include it in the 21st Century War on Terror, otherwise it truly is an individual act of domestic violence, like Columbine, Virginia Tech and past presidential assassinations have been.
So we're now rewriting history that McVeigh was just some disturbed kook? Some embittered, pissed off kid? There was no ideology, no organization behind that attack? Come on, now. That was textbook terrorism. It's just he (and his co-conspirators) doesn't fit our 21st century profile of what "terror" is. He's white. He's not Muslim. He's American. That's my point, this is not a "War on Terror". . .the way it's been prosecuted so far, I'm not sure WHAT it is. What it SHOULD have been is a war on Al-Qaeda/Taliban. WOT is lazy terminology, period. It should be dispensed with.

Oh, and Happy New Year to you too
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Old 01-02-2008, 07:01 AM   #72
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Very true, nobody (including GWB) said it would be easy or quick. It may take generations.

Well Vincent, when we "torture" it is to gain intelligence to protect lives -- not to coerce a phoney conversion or a denouncing of former beliefs -- and if we have videotape we destroy those tapes. Our enemy posts their "torture" videos on the internet. We aren't stooping to their level.

But let's say for a moment that Guantanamo Bay is doing more harm than good and must go. So we close it and give all current detainees a plane ticket to Berlin and 50,000 Euros.

You cool with that?
Yes, of course, because everything is just black and white.

Do you think anyone cares why you did torture one? Or that you destroyed all evidence?
Oh, they are even publishing their videos, well then we can't be as bad, great logic.

Where in my argument am I stating that you should let them go? Not in the least am I implying this, so please stay focused.
Just treat them as humans, that would be something. Give them equal treatment and a fair trial, and try to focus on the people that are really important, instead of hundreds of people you have captured and now don't know what to do with them.
Show some real strength in treating your enemy with the same respect you ask to receive.
I might be wrong, but I thought those were some Christian values.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:24 AM   #73
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Yes, of course, because everything is just black and white.
You would think, by some people's responses in here that they've never seen color TV that they are still watching 'Leave it to Beaver' on primetime.

Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega

Do you think anyone cares why you did torture one? Or that you destroyed all evidence?
Oh, they are even publishing their videos, well then we can't be as bad, great logic.
Exactly.


Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega

Where in my argument am I stating that you should let them go? Not in the least am I implying this, so please stay focused.
Just treat them as humans, that would be something. Give them equal treatment and a fair trial, and try to focus on the people that are really important, instead of hundreds of people you have captured and now don't know what to do with them.
Show some real strength in treating your enemy with the same respect you ask to receive.
Yeah, I've never understood this leap of logic. Oh, well if you don't want to hold them indefinately without trial then you must want to let them go.

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I might be wrong, but I thought those were some Christian values.
No, no, the right only use Christian "values" to judge and discriminate.
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Old 01-02-2008, 11:24 AM   #74
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Legal means.


woah, woah, woah.

these are "means" that have been "legalized" by the president, who has said that if he himself decides something should be legal, then it is legal, because the president decides what is legal.

any true conservative would be shocked by the Orwellian nature of Mr. Bush/Cheney.

he leads because he is great, and he is great because he leads.
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Old 01-02-2008, 02:44 PM   #75
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