Britain Drops 'War on Terror' Label

[phillyfan26]

Then in the spirit of the new year I'll retract it.

Happy New Years.

Same to you.

 

[ntalwar]

I understand your point and you are correct, radical Islam can't be bombed, isolated, embargoed or entered into treaty with. It is, to be sure, a new type of War -- but a war nevertheless. And we are still in the process of discovering the most effective ways to win it. There are many ways to win a war of ideology.

What proof is there that it's a "War of ideology"? Why haven't there been attacks on churches if that's the case? Who says it's a war of ideology, and not one of land occupation or one of natural resources? Fox News?

 

[Irvine511]

I don't accept your moral equivalency.

All "torture" is not equal.

but all torture gets you the same thing -- bad information. and it ushers in the sadists. and the good people leave. and it will destroy you from within before anyone destroys you from outside.

 

[BVS]

9/11-- just a random attack by a group, totally unrelated to previous or subsequent attacks and with no underlying ideology. Well, if you believe that you should pooh-pooh the War on Terror I guess.

How does being unrelated to previous or subsequent attacks have anything to do with anything?

The street is their battlefield. Civilian clothes their uniform.

Exactly. But how does that justify keeping possible innocent people in custody or torture?

 

[INDY500]

What proof is there that it's a "War of ideology"? Why haven't there been attacks on churches if that's the case? Who says it's a war of ideology, and not one of land occupation or one of natural resources? Fox News?

Don't take my word for it, read the Sept 07 message from bin Laden in which you will read:

People of America: I shall be speaking to you on important topics which concern you, so lend me your ears. I begin by discussing the war which is between us and some of its repercussions for us and you."

... there are two solutions for stopping it. The first is from our side, and it is to continue to escalate the killing and fighting against you. This is our duty, and our brothers are carrying it out, and I ask Allah to grant them resolve and victory. And the second solution is from your side. It has now become clear to you and the entire world the impotence of the democratic system and how it plays with the interests of the peoples and their blood by sacrificing soldiers and populations to achieve the interests of the major corporations."

This is why I tell you: as you liberated yourselves before from the slavery of monks, kings, and feudalism, you should liberate yourselves from the deception, shackles and attrition of the capitalist system.

So it is imperative that you free yourselves from all of that and search for an alternative, upright methodology in which it is not the business of any class of humanity to lay down its own laws to its own advantage at the expense of the other classes as is the case with you, since the essence of man-made positive laws is that they serve the interests of those with the capital and thus make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

The infallible methodology is the methodology of Allah, the Most High, who created the heavens and earth and created the Creation and is the Most Kind and All-Informed and the Knower of the souls of His slaves and the methodology that best suits them.

To conclude, I invite you to embrace Islam, for the greatest mistake one can make in this world and one which is uncorrectable is to die while not surrendering to Allah, the Most High, in all aspects of one's life - ie., to die outside of Islam. And Islam means gain for you in this first life and the next, final life. The true religion is a mercy for people in their lives, filling their hearts with serenity and calm.

And it will also achieve your desire to stop the war as a consequence, because as soon as the warmongering owners of the major corporations realize that you have lost confidence in your democratic system and begun to search for an alternative, and that this alternative is Islam.

Let's see, throw away democracy, throw away capitalism and embrace Islam. Sounds kinda ideological doesn't it?

 

[ntalwar]

Don't take my word for it, read the Sept 07 message from bin Laden in which you will read:

Ever notice how a new tape surfaces at peculiar times?
He's dead according to Bhutto, but feel free to believe it.

 

[INDY500]

but all torture gets you the same thing -- bad information. and it ushers in the sadists. and the good people leave. and it will destroy you from within before anyone destroys you from outside.

Sorry, I know that's the talking point but it simply isn't true. Do you believe George Tenet when he says post-9/11 interrogations uncovered terror plots and saved lives? That they led to the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?
That the whole program was legal under U.S. law and that top members of Congress, including Nancy Pelosi, have been fully briefed since 2002.
It's a good argument to have, but labeling everything remotely harsh as "torture" while ignoring even the possibility of any benefit isn't really in our best interest is it?

Happy New Year by the way.

 

[Irvine511]

Sorry, I know that's the talking point but it simply isn't true. Do you believe George Tenet when he says post-9/11 interrogations uncovered terror plots and saved lives? That they led to the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?
That the whole program was legal under U.S. law and that top members of Congress, including Nancy Pelosi, have been fully briefed since 2002.
It's a good argument to have, but labeling everything remotely harsh as "torture" while ignoring even the possibility of any benefit isn't really in our best interest is it?

i don't believe that there was information gathered through these "aggressive" techniques that could not have been acquired through legal means, and no one ever talks about the massive, massive wastes of time and money that has been spent investigating the bogus information coughed up by waterboarding.

are you going to believe the men who authorized these techniques? why wouldn't they attempt to justify their illegal actions?

don't forget, these techniques -- originated in countries run by Stalin and Pol Pot -- were precisely designed to extract FALSE confessions in totalitarian societies, not as a way to get workable information.

ever heard of SERE training?

and try googling Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libbi.

it's all part of the bigger plan. they use torture to get false confessions about other plots (shopping malls, banks, apartment buildings) that have no basis in reality, but then turn around and justify more "war" and more "techniques."

let's battle the real threats. we have neither the time nor the resources to torture new "threats" into existence.

Happy New Year by the way.

and to you as well.

 

[INDY500]

i don't believe that there was information gathered through these "aggressive" techniques that could not have been acquired through legal means, and no one ever talks about the massive, massive wastes of time and money that has been spent investigating the bogus information coughed up by waterboarding.

are you going to believe the men who authorized these techniques? why wouldn't they attempt to justify their illegal actions?

Legal means. First, I'd be with you if I truly thought this administration was breaking any laws. Second, it's so easy to forget how sure as a country we were that another attack of even greater scale was imminent. Remember how easily the Patriot Act sailed through Congress? Michael Moore and others love to lampoon "The Pet Goat" look on Bush's face as an aid whispered into his ear on that morning that our country may be under attack, but I only see a look of pain never experienced by a U. S. president before.
And I'm glad he said "not again on my watch."

 

[BVS]

How does being unrelated to previous or subsequent attacks have anything to do with anything?




Exactly. But how does that justify keeping possible innocent people in custody or torture?

I'm glad you're living up to your MO Indy by not answering the questions asked of you...

Happy New Year!!!

 

[maycocksean]

Wasn't Nazism an ideology that used the resources of Germany to spread. One needn't be German to have been a Nazi after all. The 30 Years War was about ideology wasn't it. What of civil wars?

Ideology often motivates nations, but the war itself is with the nation, not with the ideology. The guns are fired at soldiers, the bombs dropped on strategic targets, not ways of thinking.

I understand your point and you are correct, radical Islam can't be bombed, isolated, embargoed or entered into treaty with. It is, to be sure, a new type of War -- but a war nevertheless. And we are still in the process of discovering the most effective ways to win it. There are many ways to win a war of ideology.

I would suggest that there are better ways to fight ideology than through the use of war. I also wanted to point out that we're talking about the War on Terror but you mentioned above, radical Islam. But the war is supposed to be on "Terror", right? Or is it a War on Radical Islam? (guess that wouldn't have sold as well in the marketplace of ideas)

Do you have to be Muslim? As tragic as OKC was, when terrorists start shouting "McVeigh" as they martyr themselves in place of "Allah" then we can include it in the 21st Century War on Terror, otherwise it truly is an individual act of domestic violence, like Columbine, Virginia Tech and past presidential assassinations have been.

So we're now rewriting history that McVeigh was just some disturbed kook? Some embittered, pissed off kid? There was no ideology, no organization behind that attack? Come on, now. That was textbook terrorism. It's just he (and his co-conspirators) doesn't fit our 21st century profile of what "terror" is. He's white. He's not Muslim. He's American. That's my point, this is not a "War on Terror". . .the way it's been prosecuted so far, I'm not sure WHAT it is. What it SHOULD have been is a war on Al-Qaeda/Taliban. WOT is lazy terminology, period. It should be dispensed with.

Oh, and Happy New Year to you too

 

[Vincent Vega]

Very true, nobody (including GWB) said it would be easy or quick. It may take generations.

Well Vincent, when we "torture" it is to gain intelligence to protect lives -- not to coerce a phoney conversion or a denouncing of former beliefs -- and if we have videotape we destroy those tapes. Our enemy posts their "torture" videos on the internet. We aren't stooping to their level.

But let's say for a moment that Guantanamo Bay is doing more harm than good and must go. So we close it and give all current detainees a plane ticket to Berlin and 50,000 Euros.

You cool with that?

Yes, of course, because everything is just black and white.

Do you think anyone cares why you did torture one? Or that you destroyed all evidence?
Oh, they are even publishing their videos, well then we can't be as bad, great logic.

Where in my argument am I stating that you should let them go? Not in the least am I implying this, so please stay focused.
Just treat them as humans, that would be something. Give them equal treatment and a fair trial, and try to focus on the people that are really important, instead of hundreds of people you have captured and now don't know what to do with them.
Show some real strength in treating your enemy with the same respect you ask to receive.
I might be wrong, but I thought those were some Christian values.

 

[BVS]

Yes, of course, because everything is just black and white.

You would think, by some people's responses in here that they've never seen color TV that they are still watching 'Leave it to Beaver' on primetime.

Do you think anyone cares why you did torture one? Or that you destroyed all evidence?
Oh, they are even publishing their videos, well then we can't be as bad, great logic.

Exactly.

Where in my argument am I stating that you should let them go? Not in the least am I implying this, so please stay focused.
Just treat them as humans, that would be something. Give them equal treatment and a fair trial, and try to focus on the people that are really important, instead of hundreds of people you have captured and now don't know what to do with them.
Show some real strength in treating your enemy with the same respect you ask to receive.

Yeah, I've never understood this leap of logic. Oh, well if you don't want to hold them indefinately without trial then you must want to let them go.

I might be wrong, but I thought those were some Christian values.

No, no, the right only use Christian "values" to judge and discriminate.

 

[Irvine511]

Legal means.

woah, woah, woah.

these are "means" that have been "legalized" by the president, who has said that if he himself decides something should be legal, then it is legal, because the president decides what is legal.

any true conservative would be shocked by the Orwellian nature of Mr. Bush/Cheney.

he leads because he is great, and he is great because he leads.

 

[Vincent Vega]

That's the price we are paying.

Source: Privacy International

 

[INDY500]

And the point of the map is that we'd be safer without surveillance cameras in malls, banks or police cars? Better off without GPS satellites or tracking cookies on web pages? More free without those Kroger, Best Buy or Walgreens shopping cards that keep a record of your purchases? What do they consider surveillance?

Personally, I'd be more worried about your neighbor looking through your window with his binoculars or listening to your cordless phone on his radio scanner, the kid trying to hack into your computer or the hundreds of millions of cellphone and video cameras out there able to record you... without you knowing it.
(don't tase me bro!)

 

[Vincent Vega]

It basically measures how the governments are protecting our privacy with measures that go far beyond some surveillance cameras, like saving all your internet, telephone and mobile connections for half a year, or longer, wiretapping phones and then asking a judge for permission, and gathering information on every single citizen that are of highly questionable use for them.

What you are doing with your Kroger purchases is your own problem, it's about state surveillance of each and every step you make.
Knowing that my country is trying to re-activate Stasi methods is making me far more uncomfortable.


And if she is young and nice, she may well look through my window as long as she wishes for.

 

[INDY500]

And if she is young and nice, she may well look through my window as long as she wishes for.

Well, you and your schwanzstucker may end up on YouTube.

 

[ntalwar]

And the point of the map is that we'd be safer without surveillance cameras in malls, banks or police cars? Better off without GPS satellites or tracking cookies on web pages? More free without those Kroger, Best Buy or Walgreens shopping cards that keep a record of your purchases? What do they consider surveillance?

I think the point of the map is more along the lines of this - using private security contractors to spy on Americans:

http://www.alternet.org/story/69105/

 

[INDY500]

a National Applications Office (NAO) will be established to coordinate how the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and domestic law enforcement and rescue agencies use imagery and communications intelligence picked up by U.S. spy satellites. If the plan goes forward, the NAO will create the legal mechanism for an unprecedented degree of domestic intelligence gathering that would make the United States one of the world's most closely monitored nations.

Look, I've done my own "threat assessment" on the likelihood of GWB abusing his powers to take away the constitutional rights of any U.S. citizens.
It comes back -- "VERY LOW."
Now maybe I'm a naïve idiot, but if I'm going to worry about anything than it would be the very real possibility that I (and most working Americans) will see our taxes go up, our healthcare system socialized, and our military weakened in the very near future; not that George Bush can use spy satellites to monitor what I'm cooking on my Weber grill this summer.

 

[phillyfan26]

I'd say most people would do an assessment and it would come back "HAS AND WILL CONTINUE TO."

 

[maycocksean]

Look, I've done my own "threat assessment" on the likelihood of GWB abusing his powers to take away the constitutional rights of any U.S. citizens.
It comes back -- "VERY LOW."

Tend to agree with INDY here. As much as I dislike GWB, I really don't think we're anywhere near the level of a " big brother is watching" type society nor do I think we're headed there any time soon.

 

[Irvine511]

[q]A letter come blowin' in
On an ill wind
Somethin' 'bout me and you
Never seein' one another again
And what I knew had come
Stars struck deaf and dumb
Like when we kissed
That taste of blood on your tongue

Don't worry, darlin'
No baby, don't you fret
We're livin' in the future
And none of this has happened yet
Don't worry, darlin'
No baby, don't you fret
We're livin' in the future
And none of this has happened yet

Woke up election day
Sky's gunpowder and shades of grey
Beneath the dirty sun
I whistle my time away
Then just about sun down
You come walkin' through town
Your boot heels clickin' like
The barrel of a pistol spinnin' round

Don't worry, darlin'
No baby, don't you fret
We're livin' in the future
And none of this has happened yet
Don't worry, darlin'
No baby, don't you fret
We're livin' in the future
And none of this has happened yet

The earth it gave away
The sea rose towards the sun
I opened up my heart to you
It got all damaged and undone
My ship Liberty sailed away
On a bloody red horizon
The groundskeeper opened the gates
And let the wild dogs run

Alone I limp through town
A lost cowboy at sundown
Got my monkey on a leash
Got my ear tuned to the ground
My faith's been torn asunder
Tell me is that rollin' thunder
Or just the sinkin' sound
Of somethin' righteous goin' under

Don't worry, darlin'
No baby, don't you fret
We're livin' in the future
And none of this has happened yet
Don't worry, darlin'
No baby, don't you fret
We're livin' in the future
And none of this has happened yet[/q]

 

[ntalwar]

Tend to agree with INDY here. As much as I dislike GWB, I really don't think we're anywhere near the level of a " big brother is watching" type society nor do I think we're headed there any time soon.

It's largely invisible and unpublicized so far, but it's happening. How about things like the Total Information Awareness project? If that's not Orwellian-sounding, I don't know what is. They may not be peering into homes (yet), but everything involving banking, email, internert, and telephone is known.

 

[martha]

Look, I've done my own "threat assessment" on the likelihood of GWB abusing his powers to take away the constitutional rights of any U.S. citizens.
It comes back -- "VERY LOW."

Just poking in to point out another fantasy of the right: They forget that someday the powers they give their friends will be the powers their enemies can use against them.

 

[INDY500]

It's largely invisible and unpublicized so far, but it's happening. How about things like the Total Information Awareness project? If that's not Orwellian-sounding, I don't know what is. They may not be peering into homes (yet), but everything involving banking, email, internert, and telephone is known.

I believe in an omniscient God so maybe I don't have quite the level of expectation in regards to privacy that others do.

However, I'm very aware that governments can abuse technology and their powers in regards to privacy. And it can be right here in America. We know that the Kennedy administration illegally wiretapped civil rights leaders in the 60's, the McCarthy trials of the 50's got out of hand, Nixon had an enemies list, and that the Clinton administration keep a database on Churches and pro-life groups under VAAPCON.

But these aren't conspiracies, they are abuses of power for political reasons. And they have existed since the Egyptian pharos employed agents of espionage to expose disloyal subjects or the Romans instituted the first census I suppose.

And it should be noted that these very same administrations used the very same technology to catch criminals, breakup organized crime syndicates, and to uncover spy rings and drug cartels. So it's not that governments spy on it's citizens, they always have, it's what they do with the information.

 

[BVS]

So it's not that governments spy on it's citizens, they always have, it's what they do with the information.

Um, no it's both.

Status quo isn't an excuse. Because "they always have" doesn't mean shit to me.

 

[phillyfan26]

But these aren't conspiracies, they are abuses of power for political reasons. And they have existed since the Egyptian pharos employed agents of espionage to expose disloyal subjects or the Romans instituted the first census I suppose.

And it should be noted that these very same administrations used the very same technology to catch criminals, breakup organized crime syndicates, and to uncover spy rings and drug cartels. So it's not that governments spy on it's citizens, they always have, it's what they do with the information.

So, as long as we get the OK from you, it shouldn't matter to us? We should just trust that they won't misuse the information?

Here's the bottom line, very clearly: the Right gives the government waaaaaaaaay too much credit.

(You know, if it's a Republican in the White House, of course.)

 

[maycocksean]

Has the Bush administration overreached in terms of invading civil liberties? Absolutely.

But the hyperbolic idea that we're living on the brink of a Soviet-style surveillance state--I just don't see compelling evidence for that. Insisting on extreme scenarios makes it more difficult to argue against the real and serious violations that are actually taking place.

If it were as bad some are implying it is, some FYM posters would be mysteriously disappearing, as the government spiesbecame aware of their anti-Bush views.

(Though I admit, I have often suspected STING/Strongbow is in the employ of the U.S. government, planted in FYM to spread pro-administration propaganda. . . )

 

[INDY500]

Has the Bush administration overreached in terms of invading civil liberties? Absolutely.

Maybe, but as the debris in NYC and D.C. was being cleared the question people were asking then was why the government couldn't connect the dots to prevent this attack from happening.
That was over six years ago, doesn't that count for something?

But the hyperbolic idea that we're living on the brink of a Soviet-style surveillance state--I just don't see compelling evidence for that. Insisting on extreme scenarios makes it more difficult to argue against the real and serious violations that are actually taking place.

If it were as bad some are implying it is, some FYM posters would be mysteriously disappearing, as the government spiesbecame aware of their anti-Bush views.

Exactly, if GWB is a fascist than surely he is the most incompetent fascist in history. In Fascist Amerika, the president's most vocal critics don't end up in a prison cell or in front of a firing squad, no, they end up on the bestseller lists, at the podium to accept their Oscar or on MSNBC at 8pm.