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Old 12-31-2007, 01:27 PM   #16
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Originally posted by AchtungBono


But those methods ARE justified against terrorists.
Those methods are a great recruiting tool for terrorists.
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Old 12-31-2007, 02:55 PM   #17
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Originally posted by AchtungBono


But those methods ARE justified against terrorists.
So, if I label you a terrorists I can then torture you?
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Old 12-31-2007, 04:34 PM   #18
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NY Times

December 31, 2007
Editorial
Looking at America

There are too many moments these days when we cannot recognize our country. Sunday was one of them, as we read the account in The Times of how men in some of the most trusted posts in the nation plotted to cover up the torture of prisoners by Central Intelligence Agency interrogators by destroying videotapes of their sickening behavior. It was impossible to see the founding principles of the greatest democracy in the contempt these men and their bosses showed for the Constitution, the rule of law and human decency.

It was not the first time in recent years we’ve felt this horror, this sorrowful sense of estrangement, not nearly. This sort of lawless behavior has become standard practice since Sept. 11, 2001.

The country and much of the world was rightly and profoundly frightened by the single-minded hatred and ingenuity displayed by this new enemy. But there is no excuse for how President Bush and his advisers panicked — how they forgot that it is their responsibility to protect American lives and American ideals, that there really is no safety for Americans or their country when those ideals are sacrificed.

Out of panic and ideology, President Bush squandered America’s position of moral and political leadership, swept aside international institutions and treaties, sullied America’s global image, and trampled on the constitutional pillars that have supported our democracy through the most terrifying and challenging times. These policies have fed the world’s anger and alienation and have not made any of us safer.

In the years since 9/11, we have seen American soldiers abuse, sexually humiliate, torment and murder prisoners in Afghanistan and Iraq. A few have been punished, but their leaders have never been called to account. We have seen mercenaries gun down Iraqi civilians with no fear of prosecution. We have seen the president, sworn to defend the Constitution, turn his powers on his own citizens, authorizing the intelligence agencies to spy on Americans, wiretapping phones and intercepting international e-mail messages without a warrant.

We have read accounts of how the government’s top lawyers huddled in secret after the attacks in New York and Washington and plotted ways to circumvent the Geneva Conventions — and both American and international law — to hold anyone the president chose indefinitely without charges or judicial review.

Those same lawyers then twisted other laws beyond recognition to allow Mr. Bush to turn intelligence agents into torturers, to force doctors to abdicate their professional oaths and responsibilities to prepare prisoners for abuse, and then to monitor the torment to make sure it didn’t go just a bit too far and actually kill them.

The White House used the fear of terrorism and the sense of national unity to ram laws through Congress that gave law-enforcement agencies far more power than they truly needed to respond to the threat — and at the same time fulfilled the imperial fantasies of Vice President Dick Cheney and others determined to use the tragedy of 9/11 to arrogate as much power as they could.

Hundreds of men, swept up on the battlefields of Afghanistan and Iraq, were thrown into a prison in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, so that the White House could claim they were beyond the reach of American laws. Prisoners are held there with no hope of real justice, only the chance to face a kangaroo court where evidence and the names of their accusers are kept secret, and where they are not permitted to talk about the abuse they have suffered at the hands of American jailers.

In other foreign lands, the C.I.A. set up secret jails where “high-value detainees” were subjected to ever more barbaric acts, including simulated drowning. These crimes were videotaped, so that “experts” could watch them, and then the videotapes were destroyed, after consultation with the White House, in the hope that Americans would never know.

The C.I.A. contracted out its inhumanity to nations with no respect for life or law, sending prisoners — some of them innocents kidnapped on street corners and in airports — to be tortured into making false confessions, or until it was clear they had nothing to say and so were let go without any apology or hope of redress.

These are not the only shocking abuses of President Bush’s two terms in office, made in the name of fighting terrorism. There is much more — so much that the next president will have a full agenda simply discovering all the wrongs that have been done and then righting them.

We can only hope that this time, unlike 2004, American voters will have the wisdom to grant the awesome powers of the presidency to someone who has the integrity, principle and decency to use them honorably. Then when we look in the mirror as a nation, we will see, once again, the reflection of the United States of America.
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Old 01-01-2008, 08:05 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So, if I label you a terrorists I can then torture you?
You can't label me a terrorist if I'm innocent and done nothing wrong.

On the other hand, if I'm constantly threatening your life, harming your children, bombing your house, beating you to a pulp and making your life a living hell.....you have the right to defend yourself in EVERY way possible.
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Old 01-01-2008, 10:20 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


You can't label me a terrorist if I'm innocent and done nothing wrong.

And yet it's happening nearly on a daily basis.
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Old 01-01-2008, 11:49 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


You can't label me a terrorist if I'm innocent and done nothing wrong.
What is "wrong" and who gets to decide that - President Bush?

President Bush told other nations that "you are either with us or with the terrorists". So the fact that Russia and China, etc. don't always go along with the US means they are terrorists subject to torture?
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Old 01-01-2008, 12:12 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
You can't label me a terrorist if I'm innocent and done nothing wrong.

On the other hand, if I'm constantly threatening your life, harming your children, bombing your house, beating you to a pulp and making your life a living hell.....you have the right to defend yourself in EVERY way possible.
Who's to say you are or aren't?

You make way too many assumptions about the processes of the legal system. It's not perfect. And until you recognize that, your input in these discussions is completely worthless.
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:08 PM   #23
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[QUOTE

President Bush told other nations that "you are either with us or with the terrorists". So the fact that Russia and China, etc. don't always go along with the US means they are terrorists subject to torture?
[/QUOTE]

Citizens of Russia and China have been subject to imprisoning, torturing and outright murder well before the War On Terror. Their respective governments having shown themselves more than capable of the task and hardly in need of U.S. assistance.
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:09 PM   #24
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Germany and France... or "Old Europe"?

ETA: It's pretty sad when you have to justify your actions by saying: But they are doing it, too.
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:25 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Citizens of Russia and China have been subject to imprisoning, torturing and outright murder well before the War On Terror. Their respective governments having shown themselves more than capable of the task and hardly in need of U.S. assistance.
And it looks like Bush thinks it's a good example to follow.
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:28 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
[QUOTE

President Bush told other nations that "you are either with us or with the terrorists". So the fact that Russia and China, etc. don't always go along with the US means they are terrorists subject to torture?


Citizens of Russia and China have been subject to imprisoning, torturing and outright murder well before the War On Terror. Their respective governments having shown themselves more than capable of the task and hardly in need of U.S. assistance.
[/QUOTE]

Just sad.
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:30 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


You can't label me a terrorist if I'm innocent and done nothing wrong.
Sure I can. That's exactly what you are saying. You support the torturing and imprisonment of detainees without trial to actually prove they are terrorist.

If you don't have to prove it, than anyone can be labeled a terrorist.

You don't think there are those that are imprisoned or have been imprisoned that have done nothing wrong?
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:16 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by ntalwar


And it looks like Bush thinks it's a good example to follow.
I don't accept your moral equivalency.

All "torture" is not equal. The detainment of a few hundred and the harsh interrogation "torture" of only a select few top strategists to help identify terrorists (they don't wear uniforms do they?) and to gain actionable intelligence to prevent the mass-murder of innocents is not the same as the sadistic, systemic and decades long human rights abuses of Russia, Red China, Cuba, N Korea, Iran or Iraq under Saddam Hussein.

But I acknowledge that the virulent hatred of George W Bush makes it difficult for some people to make this distinction.
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:30 PM   #29
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There have been two cases with Germans who have been kidnapped and sent to Guantanamo or one of the secret prisons where they got tortured, detained and kept in secret places without anyone knowing where they are or whether they are still alive.
And they didn't have the least to do with any terrorist organisation, yet they were tortured and kept captive for months.
Who knows how many of those cases exist without anyone knowing, and worse, your govenment set the legal ground for this going out of control. And history has taught us how easily such actions go out of control.
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:36 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Sure I can. That's exactly what you are saying. You support the torturing and imprisonment of detainees without trial to actually prove they are terrorist.

If you don't have to prove it, than anyone can be labeled a terrorist.

You don't think there are those that are imprisoned or have been imprisoned that have done nothing wrong?
The Trial on Terror!!

BVS, that didn't work prior to 9/11...why would it now?

Was the act of crashing hijacked commercial airliners into America's financial district and the Pentagon;

A) A domestic military strike
or
B) A civil crime
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