digsy said:
the issues with this case are clear to me if not to the (idiotic) judge who presided over the case - she was so drunk she needed an escort and the man who was charged with looking after her, an on duty security guard, took advantage of that and completely abused the situation and the trust that had been placed in him.
as for "drunken consent" - being so drunk you can't say no, does NOT mean you said yes.
I am strongly inclined to agree with you. Mr Dougal's status as an on-duty security guard, charged with protecting his extremely drunk accuser, adds a twist to this case that makes the responsibility question much starker than the usual scenarios.
Irvine511 said:
very interesting discussion ... where i went to college, in Massachusetts, by law if a woman has even had a single drink then she is unable to give legal consent to sex.
where is the line drawn? how responsible for our actions are we when we're drunk? and how drunk?
I think this is one of those issues where the law's emphasis on finding one standard to fit all cases, is more a hindrance than a help when looking for ways to
reduce the incidence of such cases to begin with.
Like many in here I'd imagine, I shared a house with several other students of both sexes during my gradschool years, and remember quite clearly that utterly shitfaced people of both sexes will amorously paw at, blow kisses to, and murmur slurred sweet nothings in the ear of pretty much anybody who shakes them out of their stupor, hauls them to their feet, and walks them down the hall to their room. A person in this state doesn't have anything resembling a realistic concept of who or what their behavior is directed towards, much less a clearheaded perception of how their behavior appears to others. In situations where a potential female "partner" is this drunk, I simply cannot take seriously any *sober* man who claims to believe she knew perfectly well what was going on.
Unfortunately though, usually the man involved is fairly drunk himself, which is one of the points at which the responsibility issue gets thorny. Another is that the woman involved is usually not
as drunk as the description above, making any "taking advantage" that might have occurred harder to pinpoint.
My problem with sweeping preventive measures like the MA law is that no one is going to observe that standard all, or even most, of the time. (What about married couples? Dating students who have been together, and been having sex, for several months already? All the women who've engaged in a one-night fling after a few drinks, and feel they quite well intended and enjoyed the results?) Which means that the law quickly becomes useless as a preventive, because people get in the habit of thinking "Yeah, well, its intent doesn't apply here."
I think, when all is said and done, we have to hold men responsible--even if drunk at the time--for proceeding in the face of
any explicit rejection of intensified contact from a drunk woman--even if conveyed in a mild tone, and even if she's still showing considerable interest in lesser degrees of contact, kissing, caressing, etc. I think this has to be the point at which his behavior can be said to be straying towards criminal territory, and we don't grant drunk people immunity from other kinds of criminal charges.
This should not be interpreted as making the woman responsible for the man's behavior--her responsibility is to convey her own desires (and lacks thereof), not how he ought to manage his. If a man feels he can't continue at (e.g.) the kissing-and-caressing level without getting carried away, then it's his responsibility to say so and extricate himself from the situation.
But I also think a woman who
wasn't staggering, slurring, falling-down drunk at the time, has to be ultimately held responsible for living with the consequences if she
didn't signal her
unwillingness to proceed. Unfortunately, for many women the feeling of having
"been had" sexually is a source of very deep, and very painful, feelings of shame and humiliation; so what might seem to a man like a cause for mild self-rebuke, nothing more, may be experienced by a woman as a powerful threat to her self-respect as someone in control of her own body. And when one's state of mind at the time is the
only means of distinguishing a humiliating forced submission from a (fleetingly) pleasurable shared intimacy, it can be disturbingly difficult to come to terms with, and accept, just what one's state of mind was.
Needless to say, culturally transmitted archetypes of women as beings who need special protection sexually--and who are "tainted" by sexual exploitation in a way that men aren't--doesn't help matters any. Nor does the real-world frequency of violent sexual victimization of women, and their ever-present awareness of any man's potential to perpetrate it.
It is simply impossible to ascribe legal responsibility in some of these cases
without treading on landmines. I only hope that we can draw more constructive conclusions as to why this happens than the painfully familiar old men-as-lying-predators and women-as-vengeful-manipulators stereotypes.