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Old 06-22-2005, 11:23 AM   #61
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imo? give it to somebody who wants it
ideally, yes, but if she has no health insurance, she may not be able to afford to carry the child to term, much less the costs of a hospital delivery. and that's assuming there are no complications with either the pregnancy or the delivery.

/random butting in
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:33 AM   #62
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ah, youre not butting in

Thats a good point. I dont have enough knowledge on what the hospital will do for somebody with no insurance who is in labor
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:35 AM   #63
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i feel like i understand the pro-life argument; i might not agree, but i can see where it comes from.

what gives me pause is precisely the situation Dandy points out above. it strikes me that these pro-life/anti-choice people are really more pro-birth than pro-life, and they tend to care more about the fetus than about breathing children.

if you are pro-life/anti-choice, are you also for the following:

universal health care
comprehensive sex education
free, quality daycare
free, quality early childhood education (i.e., Head Start)
family medical leave act for both mothers *and* fathers

and that's just a start ...
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:36 AM   #64
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It has been a while since my public education on reproduction

but,

I believe is causes an egg that a sperm has penetrated from becoming implanted or remaining in the uterus wall.
It's been a while since my public education on reproduction, also, but based on how I'm understanding what you're saying, I'd have to say that if no implanting of seed has happened yet, then conception hasn't occurred. Is that right? If so, I'd say it's not murder.
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:37 AM   #65
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The Catholic Church's approach sometimes seems to me to be more 'pro-birth' than 'pro-life', i.e. the more Catholics are born the more people there are to win over the heathens to God. I am not trying to be provocative, I have actually heard this 'argument' from conservative Catholics in Ireland.
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:38 AM   #66
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Originally posted by dandy


ideally, yes, but if she has no health insurance, she may not be able to afford to carry the child to term, much less the costs of a hospital delivery. and that's assuming there are no complications with either the pregnancy or the delivery.

Crisis Pregnancy centers and uneed mother homes exist for that very reason. There are plenty of crisis pregnancy centers all over the place. However, there do need to be more, and I submit that pro-lifers like myself should consider supporting these kinds of places.
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:38 AM   #67
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Originally posted by Irvine511
i feel like i understand the pro-life argument; i might not agree, but i can see where it comes from.

what gives me pause is precisely the situation Dandy points out above. it strikes me that these pro-life/anti-choice people are really more pro-birth than pro-life, and they tend to care more about the fetus than about breathing children.

if you are pro-life/anti-choice, are you also for the following:

universal health care
comprehensive sex education
free, quality daycare
free, quality early childhood education (i.e., Head Start)
family medical leave act for both mothers *and* fathers

and that's just a start ...
And it should be PAID leave under FMLA...right now, the law only required that 12 weeks of unpaid leave be granted.

For mothers AND fathers.
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:39 AM   #68
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I consider myself a center left-leaning independent these days. I used to consider myself a Democrat, and when I'm forced to choose at the ballot box, I still vote it; but I've spent too many of the past election cycles frustrated by the party for either being spineless or Republican-lite or, these days, hysterical.

I'm glad that Democrats these days are more apt to stand up for themselves than prior to 2004, but I still don't think they're an effective opposition party. They should be coming up with alternative bills and plans, and then publicize the hell out of them.

No, the only peeps we seem to get these days are when Howard Dean shoots his mouth off. I like the guy, but I think he's falling into that name-calling syndrome that I think is immature. On the other hand, he's not running for office and name-calling seems to generate fundraising, which is his job. I know that Republicans certainly love to smear Democrats during fundraisers, so perhaps that's just life in politics. Dean aside, however, where's the Democrats when it comes to creating policy? That's where they're painfully silent, and I think that's a problem.

Melon

Thanks for your thorough and thoughtful answer. I agree that democrats haven't offered much in the way of new ideas lately. And as long as they bemoan how bad the country is, they're selling a product that a lot of people aren't buying (at least not enough voters to get elected) and if they don't watch their step they'll be so far in the minority that they won't even be able to stop super-majorities in the Senate. As a Conservative Republican I like to win, but at a certain point even my party (I can already hear the snickers from the left ) will get fat and happy and forget that they were elected to do the will of the people. Time will tell if the slide will continue, as Bush only increased his votes the last election despite having a controversial foreign and domestic policy. If the slide continues it's for one of two reasons. The Democrats have bad leadership and can't mount a substantive message, or the electorate has moved more conservative thus pulling the middle to the right.

As for Dean The Republicans love him! He's everything that Rush Limbaugh has warned the Conservative base about. Every characterization of left-liberal is embodied in one man who likes to speak his mind. So while Hillary is coming across as more moderate and even Hawkish, Dean is telling it like he sees it and putting his foot in his mouth over and over again. This is stuff is great for dinner parties but you don't want him to be the spokesperson for the party. And I hear that he's not even getting his primary job done which is fundraising. The more moderate Democrats seem to shy away from him because he doesn't play well with others who disagree with him.

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out in the next several years. I think the Democratic leadership would be better served to not knee-jerk away from everything that Bush supports and pick their battles better. But that's just my view from the right. I'm aware that the view from the other side of the aisle is different.

Thanks again for answering my question
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:43 AM   #69
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I totally understand where the pro choicers are coming from with the cost of raising a child that you cant afford
I guess Im pro life, not pro birth
When I think of an abortion I think of a child that never got a change to live
Not a dying foetus
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:45 AM   #70
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And it should be PAID leave under FMLA...right now, the law only required that 12 weeks of unpaid leave be granted.

For mothers AND fathers.
i just recently learned that was the case in the US, and i was shocked. the current system in canada allows 52 weeks of parental leave, and can be taken by the mother or the father, or both. this is provided through employment insurance, and good employers top it up.

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Old 06-22-2005, 11:47 AM   #71
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And it should be PAID leave under FMLA...right now, the law only required that 12 weeks of unpaid leave be granted.

For mothers AND fathers.
Ugh! Who's supposed to pay for that? Do you realize that if they pay for it, some employers will not be able to hire additional workers and so people will lose jobs?

Besides it's descrimination against singles (who choose not to get pregnant) and Gays. Do Husbands get 12 weeks off paid when their wife gives birth too? Get over here Tara! We need to get cracking if we want to maximize our vacation time over the next 20 years!

It's great that people don't get punished for getting pregnant, but to reward them with full pay is just ridiculous. Unless of course we WANT to encourage larger families.
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:51 AM   #72
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It's not only the cost of raising a child, it's also the womans life in question.

So many times abortion debates take on what the woman did wrong, or assuming that the woman was careless.
When you are doing everything right and it still happens, a woman is supposed to go live in a group home?
So it's one more family living off the gov't?
Like someone mentioned earlier, it creates a circle of poverty and over population and gov't dependance.

Also-
If abortion were to become illegal, should family planning centers (ex. Planned Parenthood) be shut down, or would the clinics be allowed to exist as they are now?
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:52 AM   #73
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Ugh! Who's supposed to pay for that? Do you realize that if they pay for it, some employers will not be able to hire additional workers and so people will lose jobs?

Besides it's descrimination against singles (who choose not to get pregnant) and Gays. Do Husbands get 12 weeks off paid when their wife gives birth too? Get over here Tara! We need to get cracking if we want to maximize our vacation time over the next 20 years!

It's great that people don't get punished for getting pregnant, but to reward them with full pay is just ridiculous. Unless of course we WANT to encourage larger families.
Tim, are you joking? Believe me, companies could swing it somehow. Our Canadian and European counterparts manage it just fine, it seems.

And yes, I believe that families should have the option of either or both parents taking time off to spend with a new child. Parenting isn't just for women. And are you ACTUALLY suggesting that people would just get pregnant to have free time off from work?

I'm saying that if you want to support a "culture of life" in this country, you need to actually encourage people to be good, loving parents. And this is a good way for people to focus on what matters (yes) more than work or money: their kids.

And, I'm sorry, but I have a hard time respecting the argument of folks who are against abortion but also against financial, material, and emotional support of new parents. As I've said before, too many people are pro-life only until the kid is born. After that, it's "screw you and your unemployed/underemployed/employed but can't take time off from work because she'll be out on the streets mom."
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:53 AM   #74
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this reminds me of the "smokers get more breaks than non smokers" argument that Ive heard quite a few times at work

Yeah. Our country needs bigger families
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Old 06-22-2005, 12:01 PM   #75
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Tim, are you joking? Believe me, companies could swing it somehow. Our Canadian and European counterparts manage it just fine, it seems.

And yes, I believe that families should have the option of either or both parents taking time off to spend with a new child. Parenting isn't just for women. And are you ACTUALLY suggesting that people would just get pregnant to have free time off from work?

I'm saying that if you want to support a "culture of life" in this country, you need to actually encourage people to be good, loving parents. And this is a good way for people to focus on what matters (yes) more than work or money: their kids.

And, I'm sorry, but I have a hard time respecting the argument of folks who are against abortion but also against financial, material, and emotional support of new parents. As I've said before, too many people are pro-life only until the kid is born. After that, it's "screw you and your unemployed/underemployed/employed but can't take time off from work because she'll be out on the streets mom."
I know that a lot of big companies could handle that but what about the small businesses that barely make it from day to day?
Where I grew up thats basically what there is, and theres a high rate of unwanted pregnancies, or mothers that just dont bother to get birth control and then act surprised when they get pregnant
If the businesses around this area had to handle the weight of prenancy leave like that they would have some serious dents in their budgets
Im not saying that its a bad thing to have paid leave, I fully support both parents spending time with the child. But theres both sides to consider
In a perfect world all mothers would be able to stay home as long as they want with their kid, or get free daycare and such but its like both sides of the argument are fighting losing battles
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