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Old 06-22-2005, 08:32 AM   #31
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You actually think that's what he meant?
Yes, I think that's what he meant. I think Irvine does think that abortion doesn't matter at all. I base that not only on the clear way he worded it in this thread, but on conversations we've shared in the past.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:33 AM   #32
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Originally posted by Irvine511






Pax was absolutely right. i meant it in a political context.

Then you should write what you mean.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:34 AM   #33
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It'd be nice if the new candidate was anti-abortion but liberal on other issues.

But it doesn't work like that I suppose.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:35 AM   #34
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest



That's not true. Just last month somone said that abortions are sometimes "very good things".
What I SAID was, "everyone would RATHER that abortions NEVER HAD TO HAPPEN." But maybe, in some cases, the life and health of the mother are best served by not carrying a pregnancy to term. I worry very much about young girls--and even grown women--who could be abused, disowned, or abandoned by their mates or families if they carried a pregnancy to term. I worry about women who've been raped or are the victims of incest. I even worry about women who've become pregnant accidentally and simply can't face a pregnancy under the economic or environmental circumstances.

I'm sad for those women. I wish abortions never happened. But I can't say I would force them to continue those pregnancies, either. It's not up to me. And it shouldn't be.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:36 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Yes, I think that's what he meant. I think Irvine does think that abortion doesn't matter at all. I base that not only on the clear way he worded it in this thread, but on conversations we've shared in the past.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:42 AM   #36
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That smilie is similar to the look I get on my face when people who actually start the arguments get a free pass while the people who are simply responding are scolded.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:50 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
It'd be nice if the new candidate was anti-abortion but liberal on other issues.

But it doesn't work like that I suppose.
Of course not. That would be too moderate, and moderates are nothing more than wishy-washy pinko commies that hate God. So let's bring out the flat-earth creationists!

Melon
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:55 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Then you should write what you mean.


oh come off it.

this is a forum where people write things quickly, and for you to harp on a possible omission of a detail (that, btw, was perfectly obvious to everyone else reading) reveals the weakness of your argument, if this is the point you're going to choose to argue over.

also, i really think you should spend a few moments in the life of a 14 year old pregnant girl before you start hurling stones and shreiking "baby killer!!!"

i'm not saying this would change your mind, but it might help you see things in a less black-and-white manner.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:59 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




oh come off it.

this is a forum where people write things quickly, and for you to harp on a possible omission of a detail (that, btw, was perfectly obvious to everyone else reading) reveals the weakness of your argument, if this is the point you're going to choose to argue over.

also, i really think you should spend a few moments in the life of a 14 year old pregnant girl before you start hurling stones and shreiking "baby killer!!!"

i'm not saying this would change your mind, but it might help you see things in a less black-and-white manner.
YOU come off it, Irvine. Am I supposed to somehow read your mind to determine that abortion does actually matter to you, when nothing you have written to me previously would lead me to that conclusion? Have you never heard of precedent?

I've never shrieked "baby killer".

And while I've never been a 14 year old pregnant girl, I have been the 22 year old unemployed father of a baby that died when he was 8 hours old, so I'm not exactly clueless on the whole "crisis pregnancy" issue.
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:03 AM   #40
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Originally posted by melon


Of course not. That would be too moderate, and moderates are nothing more than wishy-washy pinko commies that hate God. So let's bring out the flat-earth creationists!

Melon
That's not exactly my view, melon.

If I had the choice between the following 2 candidates:

A: Democrat, pro-life, supports gay marriage
B: Repoublican, pro-choice, against gay marriage

I'd vote for A in a heartbeat. That's how important the abortion issue is to me.
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:05 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
That's not exactly my view, melon.

If I had the choice between the following 2 candidates:

A: Democrat, pro-life, supports gay marriage
B: Repoublican, pro-choice, against gay marriage

I'd vote for A in a heartbeat. That's how important the abortion issue is to me.
I understand that, and I do know that, while there is a difference in opinion in America, there are reasonable people on both sides of the abortion argument. So why does it seem that Bush only appoints the most hysterical of pro-life people? That's my beef.

Melon
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:07 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
So why does it seem that Bush only appoints the most hysterical of pro-life people? That's my beef.

Melon
The 'nothing to the right' strategy. The problem is once you set yourself up as the Christian conservative candidate you can't afford to be out-flanked by someone more 'theogically sound'.
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:35 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


YOU come off it, Irvine. Am I supposed to somehow read your mind to determine that abortion does actually matter to you, when nothing you have written to me previously would lead me to that conclusion? Have you never heard of precedent?

I've never shrieked "baby killer".

And while I've never been a 14 year old pregnant girl, I have been the 22 year old unemployed father of a baby that died when he was 8 hours old, so I'm not exactly clueless on the whole "crisis pregnancy" issue.


i have heard of reading closely. that's something you should try to do -- though i understand that nuance is often lost on people with such extreme views on this particular issue.

and just read your posts -- you are very, very shrill on this subject.

i also don't see what your very unfortunate situation has to do with abortion. i am very sorry for your loss, but i don't see how it applies to this particular situation.

i am also getting frustrated that, no matter to what ends i go to further explicate my thoughts, they get continually cast into the most convenient light for you or others who disagree with me. this happens frequently in gay issue debates, and i've gotten to the point where i'm tagging so many adjectives onto my posts that it's getting silly.

abortion, in my opinion, is an issue that shrinks in importance when compared to all of the issues i listed in my earlier post.

abortion also does not affect me directly, so i would find it arrogant of me to have such a strong opinion (in fact, i find it arrogant that any man would vote simply on the basis of that issue as it centers around a woman's ability to determine what is and what is not inside her uterus).

i've explicated my own opinion on the subject so many times -- i don't feel as if science can definitively say whether or not fetal life is equivalent to a breathing baby, so i leave the decision in the hands of the woman and she will deal with the consequences ... i believe that women are smart enough to be able to make their own decisions. i also think that the only way for women to empower themselves economically -- which is the key to getting out of poverty -- is for them to remain in control of when they get pregnant. so, i remain vehemently opposed to the outlawing of abortion, however i do not feel qualified to pass a moral judgement on the issue. i simply don't know, so i leave that up to the individual.

hence, it's simply not that important to me. i am much more concerned about the state of our education system and the pending ascention of China than about abortion. i understand that these issues are less emotional than abortion, and provide much less of an opportunity to feel that intoxicating rush of self-righteousness, but it's more important.

much more.

and while the religous working classes vote solely on pro-life/anti-choice positions, the Republicans of Rancho Santa Fe and Greenwich, CT take your votes and translate them into tax cuts for the rich and decreased funding for schools and social services for the working classes.

politically brilliant, don't you think?

abortion is still legal, and will likely remain so, but the rich are getting richer and richer and richer ... again, off the backs of the lower classes.
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:38 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Of course not. That would be too moderate, and moderates are nothing more than wishy-washy pinko commies that hate God. So let's bring out the flat-earth creationists!

Melon
Just for the record... what are you? Politically speaking. Having read a lot of what you written, I'd like to know what you consider yourself....

Thanks!
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:48 AM   #45
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Just for the record... what are you? Politically speaking. Having read a lot of what you written, I'd like to know what you consider yourself....
I consider myself a center left-leaning independent these days. I used to consider myself a Democrat, and when I'm forced to choose at the ballot box, I still vote it; but I've spent too many of the past election cycles frustrated by the party for either being spineless or Republican-lite or, these days, hysterical.

I'm glad that Democrats these days are more apt to stand up for themselves than prior to 2004, but I still don't think they're an effective opposition party. They should be coming up with alternative bills and plans, and then publicize the hell out of them.

No, the only peeps we seem to get these days are when Howard Dean shoots his mouth off. I like the guy, but I think he's falling into that name-calling syndrome that I think is immature. On the other hand, he's not running for office and name-calling seems to generate fundraising, which is his job. I know that Republicans certainly love to smear Democrats during fundraisers, so perhaps that's just life in politics. Dean aside, however, where's the Democrats when it comes to creating policy? That's where they're painfully silent, and I think that's a problem.

Melon
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