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Old 06-22-2005, 07:38 AM   #16
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Things Pax Doesn't Miss about Being a Mod, Part 73:

How every FYM thread turns into a debate about either (a) abortion or (b) gay marriage.
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Old 06-22-2005, 07:41 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


"Distracts from what really matters"?

But you see, prolifers wiould say that saving the lives of babies does indeed really matter.
Let's not.

Even individuals who are politically pro-choice are not actually "in favor" of wholesale abortion. Abortion is a heartrending event about which no one should think or act cavalierly.

I love how, every time this argument comes up, people think that no one who posts or reads here might possibly be offended or very deeply hurt by the MIScategorization of people who have gone through abortions. Let's consider the fact that this is a PUBLIC forum and that, by gosh, even pro-choice folks do actually have feelings.
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Old 06-22-2005, 07:57 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by pax


Let's not.

Even individuals who are politically pro-choice are not actually "in favor" of wholesale abortion. Abortion is a heartrending event about which no one should think or act cavalierly.

I love how, every time this argument comes up, people think that no one who posts or reads here might possibly be offended or very deeply hurt by the MIScategorization of people who have gone through abortions. Let's consider the fact that this is a PUBLIC forum and that, by gosh, even pro-choice folks do actually have feelings.
Pax, Did I say anything about anyone who's ever had an abortion? No, I didn't. I never have.

To avoid "possibly hurting anyone's feelings", what would you like prolifers to do, not mention that we think that abortion is killing babies? That's the same as telling us not to even give our opinions, because that is our entire basis for believing it is wrong.

Maybe I'm offended when someone says abortion doesn't matter - in fact, I was. Why didn't you say anything to the person who said that?
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:01 AM   #19
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Well lets just bring up gay marriage too while we're at it

Bush hasnt even appointed anybody yet
And he hates women? where did that come from?
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:07 AM   #20
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Well lets just bring up gay marriage too while we're at it

Bush hasnt even appointed anybody yet
And he hates women? where did that come from?
Bush hates everyone. Didn't you know that?

In other words, it's just typical bush hater rhetoric, with no basis in fact.

Didn't there used to be a vomit smilie?
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:08 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Pax, Did I say anything about anyone who's ever had an abortion? No, I didn't. I never have.

To avoid "possibly hurting anyone's feelings", what would you like prolifers to do, not mention that we think that abortion is killing babies? That's the same as telling us not to even give our opinions, because that is our entire basis for believing it is wrong.

Maybe I'm offended when someone says abortion doesn't matter - in fact, I was. Why didn't you say anything to the person who said that?

you see?

this is precisely what i was talking about.

a microcosm of how certain elements of the Republican Party (the pro-life/anti-choice base) are weilded as political weapons of mass distraction while the Republican elite uses that to slash funding for education, health care, and do next to nothing about AIDS.

and, 80s, if i were to put the number of abortions up against the number of people, worldwide, who are going to die from AIDS by 2015, then yes, abortion is a sideshow compared to the real horror that's going on right now amongst the breathing.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:10 AM   #22
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I hope this thread doesnt turn out to be the kind it looks like its going to become
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:11 AM   #23
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Quote:
Pax, Did I say anything about anyone who's ever had an abortion? No, I didn't. I never have.

To avoid "possibly hurting anyone's feelings", what would you like prolifers to do, not mention that we think that abortion is killing babies? That's the same as telling us not to even give our opinions, because that is our entire basis for believing it is wrong.

Maybe I'm offended when someone says abortion doesn't matter - in fact, I was. Why didn't you say anything to the person who said that?
Because Irvine didn't say it didn't matter--he said things matter more to him politically. Which is a perfectly sound opinion.

And because I don't think that hammering on abortion is a healthy thing for this forum. I'm concerned that there may be folks reading and posting on this forum who may have, for whatever reason, faced this issue head-on. I don't think the relentless "abortion is killing babies" comments are helpful for anyone.

of course everyone would rather that abortions never had to happen. I can't claim to know where and when life begins (or ends, for that matter). But regardless of how I feel on the subject, I do feel for people who've been through abortion--the women and the men--and I don't think that the harsh judgment that's sometimes passed here is helpful, healing, or especially Christian.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:18 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by pax


Because Irvine didn't say it didn't matter--he said things matter more to him politically. Which is a perfectly sound opinion.
That's not what he said, pax. He said that abortion does not matter.

Here are the two quotes:

"goody. another divisive social/cultural issue to consume valuable news space and divert and distract us from things that actually matter, like"

and

"it distracts from what really matters"
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:19 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by pax

--and I don't think that the harsh judgment that's sometimes passed here is helpful, healing, or especially Christian.

Youre right about that.
I agree that calling people who've had abortions babykillers isnt constructive at all
It just alienates people from one another.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:24 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



you see?

this is precisely what i was talking about.

a microcosm of how certain elements of the Republican Party (the pro-life/anti-choice base) are weilded as political weapons of mass distraction while the Republican elite uses that to slash funding for education, health care, and do next to nothing about AIDS.
What? How does raising the abortion issue have anything to do with cuts in education funding?

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
and, 80s, if i were to put the number of abortions up against the number of people, worldwide, who are going to die from AIDS by 2015, then yes, abortion is a sideshow compared to the real horror that's going on right now amongst the breathing.
Oh, I understand you now. Abortion doesn't actually matter because 1 to 1.5 million abortions a year doesn't equal up to the number of deaths from AIDS.

I see the criteria now.

Then the Iraq war shouldn't matter to you either, becuase that's a heck of a lot less than 1 to 1.5 million deaths a year.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:24 AM   #27
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You actually think that's what he meant?

Reread his post. I think you'll see that what Irvine *meant* is that there are issues more important politically, and that perhaps he doesn't see it as an issue that, for him, will win or lose elections.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:25 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


That's not what he said, pax. He said that abortion does not matter.

Here are the two quotes:

"goody. another divisive social/cultural issue to consume valuable news space and divert and distract us from things that actually matter, like"

and

"it distracts from what really matters"




Pax was absolutely right. i meant it in a political context.

i also don't think abortion is a political issue, it's a social issue that would do best without any governmental intereference (of course, the Right loves government when they can use it to enforce whatever moral codes they deem acceptable).
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:27 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


What? How does raising the abortion issue have anything to do with cuts in education funding?



Oh, I understand you now. Abortion doesn't actually matter because 1 to 1.5 million abortions a year doesn't equal up to the number of deaths from AIDS.

I see the criteria now.

Then the Iraq war shouldn't matter to you either, becuase that's a heck of a lot less than 1 to 1.5 million deaths a year.

go read _What's the Matter With Kansas_.

that's all i have to say.

and, yes, on a grand scale, HIV/AIDS is a far, far, far more pressing issue than whether or not a woman is allowed to choose an abortion.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:30 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by pax


And because I don't think that hammering on abortion is a healthy thing for this forum. I'm concerned that there may be folks reading and posting on this forum who may have, for whatever reason, faced this issue head-on. I don't think the relentless "abortion is killing babies" comments are helpful for anyone.
Then there ought to be a rule against discussing abortion at all. Why should pro-choicers be allowed to give their opinion if the other side isn't?

What I don't think is helpful is that people can say things like "abortion doesn't actually matter", but when someone else says it does, he's jumped on by every one.

Quote:
Originally posted by pax
of course everyone would rather that abortions never had to happen.
That's not true. Just last month somone said that abortions are sometimes "very good things".

Quote:
Originally posted by pax

I can't claim to know where and when life begins (or ends, for that matter). But regardless of how I feel on the subject, I do feel for people who've been through abortion--the women and the men--and I don't think that the harsh judgment that's sometimes passed here is helpful, healing, or especially Christian.
I don't recall any prolifer in these forums ever passing harsh judgment upon women who have had abortions.
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