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Old 12-06-2004, 08:14 AM   #31
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You didn't answer my question. And there can be a discussion of alternatives without outlawing a woman's right to decide what happens to her own body.
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Old 12-06-2004, 08:18 AM   #32
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Originally posted by U2Kitten
Okay enough with the worst case scenario rhetoric, everyone knows there would always be exceptions for rape, incest, severe deformation of the fetus and health of the mother. Even most anti abortion people agree (including me)
You are dreaming here. "Everyone" doesn't know this or believe it. Look deeper into the anti-choice movement. What you find out will scare the shit out of you.


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That doesn't change that 90-98% of all abortions in the US are for reasons of convenience.
Got any reliable statistics to back this up?
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Old 12-06-2004, 08:33 AM   #33
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You are dreaming here. "Everyone" doesn't know this or believe it. Look deeper into the anti-choice movement. What you find out will scare the shit out of you.
But extremism never takes hold, in ANY cause, there is always a middle of the road. It has to be approved by many people and that's not going to happen.

And nothing makes my blood boil more than the term 'anti-choice.' Are you for everyone having every choice in the world? If not, it's stupid. It's just another attempt to make abortion look noble and cover up what it really is. If you are for gun control, you are anti choice. If you think I must wear a seat belt in my car, you are anti-choice. If you oppose smoking in resturants, you are anti choice. There are also such hypocrisies in the term 'pro life' which is why I also refuse to use it. The accurate terms are 'pro and anti abortion.' If anyone is uncomfortable with that label perhaps you need to reconsider your position. Covering it up and sugar coating it with terms you prefer don't change what it really is!



Quote:
Got any reliable statistics to back this up?
Got any to discount it?

The one thing people overlook in this debate is that, unilke the dreaded 'back alley' days you hear so much about, a wide variety of birth control is readily available these days, and it doesn't fail all that often. The biggest problem we have is people (men and women) being careless, irresponsible, and thinking it won't happen to them. I have a hard time feeling sorry for types like that, I pity the unborn child more, it wasn't his/her fault.
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Old 12-06-2004, 08:35 AM   #34
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Originally posted by U2Kitten


Got any to discount it?

the burden of proof is on the individual who cited those statistics to begin with.
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Old 12-06-2004, 08:36 AM   #35
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Sure. I don't have a link, how do you google something like that? But I've seen it many many times. Unless you can prove it wrong, my numbers stand. Besides, even if I did post something I'm sure you'd diss my source, so why bother?

Okay I found this, some of the reasons here are very upsetting to me.

http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abo...rtionstats.htm

Abortion Statistics - Decisions to Have an Abortion (U.S.)

25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)
10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
7.9% of women want no (more) children.
3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.

Looks like around 7% for health reasons. I don't even see rape, incest or failed birth control on the list. I can't believe the ones for career, money or afraid the boyfriend will get mad, or just plain not wanting the baby because you don't want to take care of it, to me that's no different than killing your boss or your husband because he's in the way of what you feel like doing.

And for those of you who might say it's not for me to judge, other crimes are judged, other things are against the law. This is the only thing that's justified, I can't understand it.

I can't swallow the ideology that because someone is poor or has a less than perfect life they might as well die now. If that's true, kill me, my kids, all those African kids, and about 80% of the human race now. I guess it's just too personal with me, I've had 3 kids and have not had good financial situations, but that doesn't mean my kids didn't deserve to live. I find that insulting, actually. You never know, one of them might grow up to be rich and famous. As long as there is life, there is a chance.

As I've said before, I really shouldn't discuss this, I feel too strongly about it. I really really didn't want to post this, I only did it so I wouldn't get accused of ducking and running. So there you go, the list and my comments. NOW- I have to go PLEASE before we all start hating each other
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Old 12-06-2004, 08:51 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
You didn't answer my question. And there can be a discussion of alternatives without outlawing a woman's right to decide what happens to her own body.
I believe a woman's choice is made when she decides whether or not to have sex if she is unprepared to parent the possible result. In that form, a woman can very rightfully decide what to do with her body. Condoms and birth control can reduce the risk of pregnancy - and I don't oppose either, but it's not a guarantee. I hear liberals talk a lot about righting past wrongs. So to go with that principle, instead of killing an innocent baby, we can provide alternatives to give that child not just any life, but a life worth living. I wouldn't mind paying higher taxes if it went to supporting unwanted children, especially if it allowed me to visit them, and let them know I care about them.
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Old 12-06-2004, 09:01 AM   #37
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I believe a woman's choice is made when she decides whether or not to have sex if she is unprepared to parent the possible result. In that form, a woman can very rightfully decide what to do with her body.
My only concern is that birth control (as in, the pill) is still pretty expensive. Fortunately, most of mine is covered by insurance (I take the pill for a non-birth control reason), but I got it through my own Dr. My insurance is with my school and I was supposed to go to their nurses, and they won't prescribe the pill for contraceptive purposes. Like I said, this doesn't effect me, but for people that want to use the pill as birth control, it sucks.
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:26 AM   #38
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Originally posted by U2Kitten


See, THIS is why I cannot stomach the 'I'm against it but won't deny anyone else the choice' philosophy. To me that's like saying, 'I'd never kill my spouse, but if OJ decides to kill his, that's his choice, who am I to judge?' There are some things that are just plain WRONG and that's why we have laws against them, including murder, robbery, even drunk driving. Why is this the only bad thing made noble and left to 'choice?' I also have a big problem with the fact that the same legal system that allows the killing of a baby for convenience also forces me to wear a seat belt in the privacy of my own vehicle? What kind of double standard is that? My body my choice, remember?



You are very right, U2Kitten. I guess the thing that gets me is the whole issue of Big Brother. But you are definetly right.

To be honest...I have seen most people want abortions for selfish reasons. I work part-time at a 24/7 hotline for women in crisis pregnancies. My basic job is to refer people to pregnancy resource centers in their area...these centers have a lot of different services and one of them is to provide factual information about abortion procedures and the risk but they don't provide or refer for them.

I have only recieved one call in the entire time of my employment from a woman who was preganant by rape (which is usually a large argument from people who are adamantly prochoice), and I've also had one call from a woman who was under the impression that her health would be an issue if she continued her pregancy--long story short, she sent a letter to our call center a few months later expressing her thanks and that she had given birth to a healthy baby....All other callers wanting abortion were ones who had situations such as they had cheated on thier spouse and didn't want to have the child if they could determine it wasn't his The pregnancy isn't the issue there--abortion or not that problem of deception and whatnot is still there.

Many women don't even really understand or know what the procedure entails and they are often considering abortion as a desperate choice and not an educated one....which makes me think there is something much bigger going on. Too many women are calling because they are afraid...afraid of what their SO is going to do or try to make them do...afraid of what their family or other people are going to think...There is something wrong with a society that is supposedly so modern and yet it's women still feel a sense of helplessness when it comes to situations like this.
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:45 AM   #39
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Why is the "I'm against it, but others should be allowed" argument only used for abortion? If you truly believe that principle, then it should apply to other things, like child rape. A harsh example, but one that underscores that failings of the principle.
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:46 AM   #40
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I wonder why Bono has chimed in on this discussion, I mean this thread was about his apparent views. Huh, funny...
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:46 AM   #41
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Can someone please explain to me why it's selfish not to want a child or children?
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:51 AM   #42
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Originally posted by Golightly Grrl
Can someone please explain to me why it's selfish not to want a child or children?

It's not selfish to not want one.

But I guess, and I'm playing devil's advocate, why is adoption not an option or such a bad idea? Abortion can and does cause a risk to the woman and it's a final and permanent decision. One choice ends a life. Another choice can give a life a chance.
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:53 AM   #43
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Why is the "I'm against it, but others should be allowed" argument only used for abortion? If you truly believe that principle, then it should apply to other things, like child rape. A harsh example, but one that underscores that failings of the principle.
Right on
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:55 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by starsgoblue

....which makes me think there is something much bigger going on. Too many women are calling because they are afraid...afraid of what their SO is going to do or try to make them do...afraid of what their family or other people are going to think...There is something wrong with a society that is supposedly so modern and yet it's women still feel a sense of helplessness when it comes to situations like this.
until we can rid society of this mindset that women's sexuality (and by extension, women in general) is something to be controlled, repressed, and swept under the rug, things are not going to get better. abortion is an imperfect means of dealing with a larger problem--women who end up pregnant against their will. in an ideal world, birth control would reliable and accessible to everyone, every child in the world would be wanted and loved, and men and women would treat each other with mutual respect and dignity. unfortunately, this is a long way from the world we live in. for now, i support women's right to choose to have an abortion, to follow through with the pregnancy, to keep the child, to give it up for adoption--whatever a woman sees fit for her circumstances. she knows what she can handle better than anyone else, and she shouldn't have any of these choices taken from her. until we come up with a better solution, this is how it is.
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:56 AM   #45
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As many might use to stop someone from a suicide, the principle in my terms is that it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
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