Bono's silence is strange and disappointing

[pub crawler]

One can aspire to be a pacifist and not be a pacifist.

deep, your point is well taken and, to be fair, I should clarify the comments I've made with respect to STING2.

I agree with you and STING2 that one can aspire to be a pacifist and not be a pacifist. I aspire to be a pacifist. I hope I am "pacifistic" in my actions. Indeed, I consider myself "pacifistic" in my actions. But I do not claim to be a 100% pure Pacifist any more than I claim to be a perfect human being or a perfect Christian.

STING2 stated that "everyone who is not evil aspires to be a pacifist." STING2 is not evil, therefore I can only conclude that he is aspiring to be a pacifist.

Based on what I've read of STING2's posts in the FYM forum, I have been tempted to write that STING2 is in love with the idea of war (though he makes claims to the contrary) but I haven't written that because I can't back it up, i.e., I haven't read everything he's written and, of his writings that I have read, I don't even remember everything.

Nevertheless, in this thread STING2 has made it perfectly clear where he stands:

I defend the use of USA military force in every single war the USA has ever fought in because I believe it was just and necessary.

That, to me, is an amazing statement, and it confirms my suspicion that STING2 simply won't listen to any argument against war, no matter how rational. It's easy for me to believe STING2 made up his mind about the current situation in Iraq before he was even fully aware of the circumstances.

Furthermore, STING2's unequivocal, unquestioning support for the use of (U.S.) military force leads me to ask the following question: In what way is STING2 aspiring to be a pacifist?

 

[STING2]

pub crawler,

Let me clarify something. I don't love war! Thats sick, I don't know anyone who feels that way. Supporting military action in certain situations or serving in the military should never be construed as "loving war". Police and Fireman don't love the violence or death that is sometimes associated with their jobs either. As to your question about pacifism, I already answered that.

I do ask lots of questions, very technical and specific questions about military actions. I have serious differences with many proposals for various things within the military, and how military forces has been used in past conflicts. Supporting the need for military action in a given conflict does not mean I don't have questions or differences of opinion in how that military force is used in that particular conflict. I also stated I had supported some type of military intervention in every war the USA has fought in. I said War of which there are 10-15 the USA has fought in, depending on one's definition of what constitutes a war, not all military actions of which there have been thousands over the past century.

"That, to me, is an amazing statement, and it confirms my suspicion that STING2 simply won't listen to any argument against war, no matter how rational. It's easy for me to believe STING2 made up his mind about the current situation in Iraq before he was even fully aware of the circumstances."

Here at Free Your Mind, we don't SLANDER people in any way. I have not said anything personal to you in anyway and yet your attempting to discuss everything about me in a personal way. I'm here to debate idea's and thoughts about current issues, I'm not here to speculate or think about someone I don't know in such a personal way.

Let me tell you something, your above statement about me is false. It is Slander, and its not something that will be tolerated over the longterm here at Free Your Mind. This debate and discussion area is not meant to be personal. If I have said something earlier to you personally that offended you, I am sorry and will certainly try not to say it again. I don't recall saying anything to you personally. It is a bit puzzling why you have become personally obsessed with me. The title of this thread is not STING2.

peace.

 

[Aine]

He's a singer not a professional politician.

He's not a big specialist on Africa or AIDS either,but he did draw
attention to that problem,and his influence as a singer,a really charismatic singer,was probably more important than if he was
a professional in the spheres mentioned.We don't even know
what it will result in - have a look at the link Follower gave,but
this certainly doesn't mean this initiative was "irrelevant" or
"naive" or anything else - it will be remembered and will make the future work just a little bit easier because someone's at least tried it.Even though some people might say "What can this guy really understand about Africa or about AIDS,he's not a professional,he's a singer".It's all about drawing attention to saving people's lives.You don't have to be a professional here.As simple as that.

 

[STING2]

Pub Crawler,

I realized I said I did not think you were a Pacifist because you advocated military intervention in Rawanda. True Pacifism is a kind of extreme and its easy to tell if one is or is not one. I respect people that are Pacifist. But again, I'm sorry I came out and made a statement about you personally. You indeed said you were not a total Pacifist, and I hope you did not take offense to my comment in that stated that. My mistake.

peace.

 

[Hawk269]

You assume two things.

1. That his silence is implicit approval for the actions of the US.

2. That his lobbying could somehow stop our president from going to war.


Both of these assumptions tell more about you than they do about a pop star who hasn't said a word either way.

Martha,

Before you offer a self-righteous critique of me, maybe you should evaluate your own assumptions:

1. I prefaced my statements by saying they were my view - not claiming them to be fact. We all percevie actions and inactions in this world. You are welcome to your interpretation of his silence (but please keep in mind the fact that that he is notoriously outspoken about issues he feels strongly about). My view is that Bono's inaction on this issue implies something, just like your action to slander me implies that you render judgment before you fully understand someone's argument.

2. I never said that Bono could stop the war - that was your assumption. My exact words: "It says that he is certainly not against it enough to lobby politicians, governments, and people to stop it, when you know he could if he wanted to. " I meant that he could lobby the politicians if he wanted to, not stop the war. Do you think that I believe Bono has some divine power to stop wars? Hmm....I think not.


Thanks.


This being a free country and all, I think I will continue to voice an opinion based on logic.



AJ

 

[Angela Harlem]

Guess we'll all have to wait and see what his stance is on the issue. If he chooses to speak, fine. Til then, none of us know. Guesswork is whats going on here. Educated guesswork perhaps, but none of us know the man, none of us have sat down with him to discuss in depth what he feels. Outside this U2 fanbase, I think many simply wouldn't care what he thinks, even some inside, myself included. His views are somewhat similar to mine and the fact that he has a specialised public profile adds no more value to them. The difference between him and us is that he has the facilities to actually make a tangible difference to the world. I can hardly have a word in Bush's ear about AIDS or Iraq and hope to make something happen. Infact, without his bloody mindedness on such things and the ability to open doors, he probably wouldn't either. We can worship Bono all we like, but its his doggedness and persistance that gets results - not the fact that it is Bono from U2 talking. I admire him for his results, but at the end of the day he is only actioning what many of us believe. He is not set apart from us humble folk by anything more than actions.

And ah, is the pacifism debate over yet?

<- for Dreadsox

 

[Dreadsox]

<- for Dreadsox

For Angela

 

[Angela Harlem]

haha, thanks matie!

 

[verte76]

He's not a big specialist on Africa or AIDS either,but he did draw
attention to that problem,and his influence as a singer,a really charismatic singer,was probably more important than if he was
a professional in the spheres mentioned.We don't even know
what it will result in - have a look at the link Follower gave,but
this certainly doesn't mean this initiative was "irrelevant" or
"naive" or anything else - it will be remembered and will make the future work just a little bit easier because someone's at least tried it.Even though some people might say "What can this guy really understand about Africa or about AIDS,he's not a professional,he's a singer".It's all about drawing attention to saving people's lives.You don't have to be a professional here.As simple as that.

No, he's not. But the way I see it, he wiill most likely eventually say something about the war, but not directly. It'll probably be in a song on the new album, and vaguely about the war, sort of like "Electrical Storm" is vaguely, but not directly, about 9/11. I don't see how he can not write a song about the war. Heck, let's face it, that's what he does best. That's why he's not running for political office. If he were running for political office, he'd absolutely have to give a position on the war. I trust we'll get something, just not a great big statement on the web site. He's affiliated with Oxfam, which has a strong anti-war position. I should know, I circulated the petition myself and hopefully got members of the Birmingham Peace Project to sign the thing. I wouldn't conclude that he's not going to say anything just because he hasn't done it yet. I'd bet serious bucks on a song about the matter.

 

[gvox]

read this and shut up...


That's a Saddam Lie!

etc etc etc

And this would have what exactly to do with what we are talking about here?

Bono said he's not going to Iraq, not that he supports a unilateral US/British invasion of it.

We now return you to your previously scheduled broadcast.

 

[gvox]

pub crawler,
.
.
.
Let me tell you something, your above statement about me is false. It is Slander, and its not something that will be tolerated over the longterm here at Free Your Mind.

No it is not slander. Nice try.

It is a statement of opinion based on observing your history of posting on FYM, just as valid as someone stating that in their opinion I tend to post with a somewhat disrespectful slant at times (cause I do, Im human).

EDIT: forget that longwinded explanation, its just not slander.

But feel free to exercise your right to forward to the appropriate ppl should you feel so.

 

[follower]

I?m sorry if the article below was already posted, I don?t have enough time to check the previous pages by now.

The People
16th February, 2003

That's a Saddam Lie!

U2 star Bono denies rumours that he is planning a face-face meeting with Iraqi dictator

By Eamonn O'Hanlon


Irish rock idol Bono is "spitting mad" over claims he is planning face-to-face talks with Saddam Hussein in a last-ditch bid to avert war in Iraq.

The U2 superstar, who took the unusual step of denying the rumours in a website message to fans, is said to feel under increasing pressure to take a stand on the war.

He has remained virtually silent on the issue since the current crisis began, despite forging ahead with a host of other political campaigns.

Hollywood bad boy Sean Penn is among those pressing the rocker to pledge his support for the anti-war movement following his own highly controversial trip to Baghdad last month.

Organisers of yesterday's massive anti-war rally in Dublin, who have managed to enlist the support of Irish stars such as Christy Moore, Hazel O'Connor, Mary Coughlan and Luka Bloom are also keen to gain Bono's support.

But pals say the star, who held talks with U.S. President George W. Bush at the White House last year on the AIDS epidemic sweeping Africa, is -- almost uniquely for him -- set to remain on the sidelines.

One source said: "Bono has firm views on a whole range of issues, from Third World debt to the future of the European Union.

"He has met world leaders and travelled thousands of miles all over the world promoting his causes.

"But even he is wary of over-extending himself.

"By trying to do too much, he is afraid he will end up doing nothing.

"He believes that the war on terror is one of the most important issues of our age, but has made virtually no public statement on the issue.

"He was furious when people started saying that he was on his way to Baghdad."

Other pals believe Bono is staying quiet to protect his "special relationship" with President Bush and other senior White House figures, including Secretary of State Colin Powell and the National Security Adviser Condolee
zza Rice.

His closeness to the Bush administration was underlined in the president's State of the Union address last month, when he recommended the U.S. Congress earmark $15 billion over the next five years to combat the AIDS crisis
in Africa and the Caribbean.

The announcement came only days after Bono penned an impassioned article for the Washington Post, imploring Bush to divert extra funds to fighting AIDS, which he claimed was killing 6,500 people every day.

Bono later praised Bush's initiative, describing it as "bold" and "wholly welcome" and a "true shift" in U.S. policy in the face of a health crisis of "biblical proportions."

Pals say Bono was shaken when only days after this triumph reports started to surface about a possible one-man peace mission to Baghdad.

Kathy Kelly, one of the American human shields visited by Penn during his fact-finding trip to the Iraqi capital, claimed Bono was expected there within weeks to meet Saddam.

"Penn has been putting pressure on Bono to follow suit," she said.

"Apparently he's going to come."

The claims, which flew directly in the face of Bono's stated admiration for American political traditions, turned out to be unfounded.

The star, who is currently in Dublin working on a new U2 album, sealed his apparent love affair with the U.S. shortly before Christmas on an AIDS awareness tour of the American Midwest with actress Ashley Judd.

At the time he said he was overwhelmed by the goodwill he had encountered from the American people, while revealing plans for a new song paying tribute to "what's great about America."

The song, which he started writing while still on the road, is called "American Prayer" and will include lyrics borrowed from the "huddled masses" inscription on the Statue of Liberty.

In his only public statement on the war, Bono echoed Colin Powell by linking the impending conflict to the war on poverty.

Even then he kept his thoughts about the rights and wrongs of war firmly under wraps.

"Right now there's talk of war on Iraq -- but the war against terror is bound up in the war against poverty," he said recently.

"Who said that? The United States Secretary of State, Colin Powell.

"All the military men involved in this campaign know you can't win this war by military means alone."

Bono's near silence has puzzled many fans, who have grown accustomed to him taking the lead on political issues.

He once admitted in an interview with America's 60 Minutes current affairs show that he had politics in his blood.

"You can't escape politics if you're Irish," Bono said.

"It's like the two subjects you can't talk about anywhere else in the world: religion and politics.

"It's all that people talk about.

"I was taught that if my opinion was informed, I had the right to
express it and not be afraid of who else was in the room.

"I'm going to be mouthing off anyway. That's who I am."


? MGN Ltd., 2003.

 

[verte76]

Yep. Can you say "15 billion for AIDS in Africa"? And isn't that important as hell?? Of course Iraq is, too, but this is a case of "you can't have your cake and eat it too". I would hate it if he screwed up his campaign in Africa with an ill-timed thing about Iraq, especially since it wouldn't do a damn thing. The guy might have power but not like that. The government is rushing off to war in Iraq.

 

[UKTan]

According to U2log.com, it was reported in The People (a fine upstanding UK tabloid ) that Bono was spotted amongst the protestors in Dublin's anti-war protest.

If the People reported it, it MUST be true

 

[verte76]

According to U2log.com, it was reported in The People (a fine upstanding UK tabloid ) that Bono was spotted amongst the protestors in Dublin's anti-war protest.

If the People reported it, it MUST be true

Oh, my goodness. Cool news if you ask me. I'm biased.

 

[Scarletwine]

Looks like he stepped off the fence.

from U2log:
An anti-war protest in Dublin drew approximately 50,000 people to the city center on Saturday. Demonstrators marched through the city to the Department of Foreign Affairs to voice their opposition to President Bush's plans for war on Iraq. Spotted among the protestors were Bono and Christy Moore, who "mixed with happy go lucky marchers," according to The People. Gardi report no serious incidences resulted from the protest.

 

[verte76]

Looks like he stepped off the fence.

from U2log:
An anti-war protest in Dublin drew approximately 50,000 people to the city center on Saturday. Demonstrators marched through the city to the Department of Foreign Affairs to voice their opposition to President Bush's plans for war on Iraq. Spotted among the protestors were Bono and Christy Moore, who "mixed with happy go lucky marchers," according to The People. Gardi report no serious incidences resulted from the protest.

Cool. I admit it, I like this news. I really didn't expect Bono to stay on the fence. It's like, huh, Bono on a fence?? It looks like he was quiet about the demonstration--it's not like he wanted to be one of the speakers. He was just Joe Q. Demonstrator.

 

[STING2]

Gabrielvox,

This is what Pub Crawler said:

"That, to me, is an amazing statement, and it confirms my suspicion that STING2 simply won't listen to any argument against war, no matter how rational. It's easy for me to believe STING2 made up his mind about the current situation in Iraq before he was even fully aware of the circumstances."

The definition of Slander: The Utterance or spreading of a false statement or statements, harmful to another's character or reputation.

I have listened and read more arguements for an against a possible war in Iraq than I care to mention. Several years ago before 9/11, I had a very different opinion about what should be done about Iraq. I don't love war! These are false personal statements!

Everyone here in Free Your Mind has the right to post when and where ever they feel like in a respectful manner, without having people attempt to make personal judgements about them. Why would anyone want to do that?

Gabriel,

We once had a member of the forum called Achtung Bubba who unfortunately could not resist attacking members of the forum personally. He is no longer a member. I don't make judgements or form personal opinions about members of the forum, because such an opinion is illinformed, unbased and unecessary.

I'm here to debate various issues not get into talking about other people in a personal nature. If you have read anything regarding the nature of this forum, you would know that such behavior is not tolerated here. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Why can't you debate a political issue without making personal comments about someone who has an opinion different from your own? Why are you so quick to form false opinions about people you know nothing about? Why do you form any personal opinion at all about anyone here? Thats not the purpose of this forum.

I avoid engaging in such behavior because I realize it is against the rules of those that created this forum. Posting here is a privilege. I'm not going to sacrifice that privilege by posting irrelevant, unecessary, uninformed personal comments about someone I don't know.

Engaging in such behavior is certainly not part of aspiring to be a Pacifist.

 

[gvox]

STING2,

You leveled the accusation of slander.

I in turn stated whether or not I agreed with your accusation.

It is my right to respond to any post, as it is yours, and I was not disrespectful. I stated my opinion.

As you and I have both been told, if you don't agree with my opinion it is your decision to a. ignore it or b. respond to it.

But don't presume to lecture me or question my motives for being on FYM. And references to former members that end up sounding like thinly veiled threats really do not concern me.

 

[verte76]

Now that Bono has attended the anti-war demonstration in Dublin I think his so-called "silence" is a non-issue. The said "silence" doesn't exist anymore. I'm glad he didn't pull a Sean Penn act; it was quite a different scene for him to attend his home town's demonstration. It's within his rights as an Irish and a European Union citizen.

 

[gvox]

Listen guys/gals, I would love for Bono to have been at that protest...BUT...

Has it being confirmed? According to one of our posters that actually lives over there, the tabloid that reported this news is hardly a respectable source.

Anyone got a better report of it?

 

[verte76]

Listen guys/gals, I would love for Bono to have been at that protest...BUT...

Has it being confirmed? According to one of our posters that actually lives over there, the tabloid that reported this news is hardly a respectable source.

Anyone got a better report of it?

You're right, the paper is a tabloid and not reliable. They quoted their source as MGN Ltd, which presumably is their *own* "news" source. I haven't seen the report anywhere else. But I cannot imagine this being a fabrication. Tabloids aren't always wrong, they usually are.

 

[STING2]

Gabrielvox,

It was an opinion in support of making personally disrespectful comments to another person of the forum. That in itself is not respectful. It would have been respectful to move on. No one here has the right to say anything just because its their Opinion. We have to be personally respectful of each other.

If you want to ignore the warnings of the past and continue to engage in personal remarks or comments about other people whether they be direct or indirect, go ahead. But I don't think its in yours or anyone elses best interest that you do so. As long as you continue to make personal statements about me, directly or indirectly, I'll continue to restate that behavior is not to be conducted in this forum and of course inform the moderators.

 

[Aine]

It's like, huh, Bono on a fence??
The said "silence" doesn't exist anymore

I'd like to thank all the people who shared their thoughts and info
in this thread,it's been greatly appreciated.There're still serious questions left unsolved for me,but you really helped to sort it out for me a bit.
I'm sorry if someone here got the impression that I've been talking offensively towards Bono- I never meant it.I started this thread because I want to know where Bono stands.For various reasons it's been very important for me for some time already.My words may have seemed harsh but then my feelings about the subject have been very,very strong.
Again thanks .

 

[Aine]

If anyone got any more good ( I HOPE!) news,please share.

 

[gvox]

STING2,

I think you should drop it. I said nothing disrespectful.

You are putting words into my mouth which I did not say.

What I will say is that I find it rather amusing that you will hypocritically tell me to 'move on' when it is clear that you have been unable to yourself, and your posting history demonstrates that you discuss support for war as a means to peace at every chance you get. Saying that is not disrespectful or offensive, only if you take it that way. I'm not the only one who thinks so, it is also clear.

I could easily say that I find it offensive when people say that due to my posting history, Im a peacenik who is completely out of touch with the realities of the brutal world we live in. But in the end all it is just some internet posters opinion of me, like does it really matter??

But seeing as how it was so offensive to you, when you are thru sending PubCrawler's comments to the mods, feel free to send mine along too.

But don't threaten me, it is neither your right or place as you are not a mod, I took notice of the real mod's warnings earlier and have since conducted myself accordingly.

Since you are so big on the principles of Free Your Mind, in what way has your mind been freed? I personally have noticed a decided shift in some of my own very strongly held opinions, while I can say that from what I've read of your posts over the last year or so, your opinions haven't changed. So are you simply here to help us free our minds? Isn't THAT a rather disrespectful presumption?

 

[verte76]

Listen guys/gals, I would love for Bono to have been at that protest...BUT...

Has it being confirmed? According to one of our posters that actually lives over there, the tabloid that reported this news is hardly a respectable source.

Anyone got a better report of it?

If this is not true, of course there will be a statement to this effect. So far I'm not familiar with such a statement.

 

[verte76]

I'd like to thank all the people who shared their thoughts and info
in this thread,it's been greatly appreciated.There're still serious questions left unsolved for me,but you really helped to sort it out for me a bit.
I'm sorry if someone here got the impression that I've been talking offensively towards Bono- I never meant it.I started this thread because I want to know where Bono stands.For various reasons it's been very important for me for some time already.My words may have seemed harsh but then my feelings about the subject have been very,very strong.
Again thanks .

Hey, no problem. I'm familiar with "strong feelings" about this because I share them. I didn't demonstrate with a fever for nothing.

 

[pub crawler]

I'm not going to sacrifice that privilege by posting irrelevant, unecessary, uninformed personal comments about someone I don't know.

Engaging in such behavior is certainly not part of aspiring to be a Pacifist.

LOL..... So STING2, you end your post by "slandering" me??? You're refering to me personally in the quote above ..... how dare you.

For what it's worth....

Earlier in this thread you apologized for making a statement about my pacifism. You apologized for getting "personal." When I read your original post in which you later felt you were too "personal," I didn't think twice about it. I have no problem with you or anyone else challenging my comments. If fact, I invite you to challenge my statements. A lot of debate happens in this forum. People call each other out on certain statements.

I think your charge of slander is a cop-out. Why don't you just say you don't care to debate the issue with me anymore?

Finally, you claim you answered the question of how you are aspiring to be a pacifist. I beg to differ. You merely gave an ambiguous answer to the question of how one strives to be a pacifist. In effect, you gave no answer at all. But that's okay, I don't care what your answer is anymore. I'm not enjoying the debate with you, so let's drop it.

Peace.

 

[Dreadsox]

I could easily say that I find it offensive when people say that due to my posting history, Im a peacenik who is completely out of touch with the realities of the brutal world we live in.

You said it....not me....