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Old 10-07-2005, 06:12 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Irvine511




it's great to see people paint "liberals" as of a single mindset with a single set of values that they all adhere to. it's great to hear the word "liberal" used as a definition of political convenience, of giving a name to myriad people from all walks of life who disagree with you. it's much easier to define people on your terms so that it serves your political purposes. this is how things like racism or sexism work -- you define those who are somewhat different from you, and then view everything they say or do through that definition.
If you read what I said, you'll realize that I did not paint all liberals as being of a single mindset. I consider BONO to be a liberal, but I certainly have not described him as being some clone. Plenty of people in here use terms like "Bushies", "Neo-Conservatives", "Conservatives" etc. to refer to the small minority of people in this forum that are Bush supporters or Republicans.
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Old 10-07-2005, 06:53 PM   #17
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Originally posted by STING2

Plenty of people in here use terms like "Bushies", "Neo-Conservatives", "Conservatives" etc. to refer to the small minority of people in this forum that are Bush supporters or Republicans.
Or who are just not liberal enough...

Or who are white heterosexaul males......

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Old 10-07-2005, 07:23 PM   #18
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Originally posted by STING2
While its true Bono did not support the initial invasion of Iraq, Bono does support the US troops working hard in Iraq to help build a new country for the people there. He has dedicated songs to them in concert this year.

I'm glad you can see these as two different things, because nowhere that I've seen has Bono said he supports the invasion of Iraq. I've read him say the exact opposite in fact.

Can you supply any quotes where he comes out and explicitly states his support for the invasion and occupation of Iraq? NOT quotes about Afganistan, please. And dedicating songs to the troops during an obviously anti-war section of the concert isn't the same as explicitly supporting the war in Iraq.
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Old 10-07-2005, 07:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


If you read what I said, you'll realize that I did not paint all liberals as being of a single mindset. I consider BONO to be a liberal, but I certainly have not described him as being some clone. Plenty of people in here use terms like "Bushies", "Neo-Conservatives", "Conservatives" etc. to refer to the small minority of people in this forum that are Bush supporters or Republicans.

yes, you're right. your use of the word "many" certianly absolves you of defining people for your political purposes. liberal is a vastly bigger term than "bushies" -- the people in the white house -- "neoconservatives" -- loosely defined as those who were once classical liberals, often came out of the U of Chicago and the Project for the New American CEntury, and now support the often unilateral application of american power to achieve political ends -- while "conservative," like "liberal," lies largely in the view of the person who is using that term. still, no matter what many people in here do, it doesn't make your post or lables any less intellectually lazy or politically convenient.
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Old 10-08-2005, 12:12 AM   #20
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Originally posted by Anu
Bono didn't say "Bush has a heart" or "Bush has done some decent things for aid to Africa"; he gave him a blanket pass on his "job," his performance. "He's doing a good job."
I took the "He's doing a good job" statement as being strictly about aid to Africa. Of course you could argue that it might be a bit premature to be praising him in that area until he actually delivers on his promises, but I never for a moment thought Bono was praising every aspect of Bush's performance as president. I thought he made that clear when he said "we don't have to agree on everything. We only have to agree on one thing."

I would love it if Bono were harsher on the Bush administration because I think a lot of the people in it are incompetent at best and outright crooks at worst, but I don't see any way he can do that without losing the ground he's worked so hard to build.
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Old 10-08-2005, 01:19 AM   #21
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Originally posted by Bono's shades
I took the "He's doing a good job" statement as being strictly about aid to Africa. Of course you could argue that it might be a bit premature to be praising him in that area until he actually delivers on his promises, but I never for a moment thought Bono was praising every aspect of Bush's performance as president. I thought he made that clear when he
Didn't see the interview, but I suspect your interpretation is correct.
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Old 10-08-2005, 01:23 AM   #22
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Originally posted by STING2
Just wanted to point out that Bono is not a pacifist and has supported the war on terror as well as the invasion of Afghanistan. I know that really angers some liberals, but BONO does not necessarily share all the views on various issues that many mainstream liberals have. While its true Bono did not support the initial invasion of Iraq, Bono does support the US troops working hard in Iraq to help build a new country for the people there. He has dedicated songs to them in concert this year.


Correct, but just to point out that in the New Musical Express interview published in early January 2005, both Bono and Adam Clayton strongly condemned the Iraq invasion, I believe Bono said it was all based on 'lies and spin'. I can post the exact quote if you wish.

But ultimately should Bono's views on Bush, Iraq, etc, really change our minds? In my view, no as he is no more qualified than Joe Sixpack to form an opinion on current affairs.
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Old 10-08-2005, 01:43 AM   #23
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Bono isn't Bono 1987 and just representing himself waxing political and argumentative about apartheid or any other issue in concert with no reprocussions.

He represents a faction who asked him to be their "leader" or spokesperson, and the easiest way for them to get from point A to point B is action, action, action. The easiest wasy to stymie the action, in this particular case is to directly insult the man who's heart neds to be won over. This isn't about Bono and a cause versus the big bad Iraq invaders. This is about am issue of emergency pleading the people who can help fix it. It's not a fuckign Bono issue. I thought this was as simple as 1-2-3.

He's trying not to play fucking politics with the issue.

I guess some people don't get it, yet. The difference between Africa and a political issue. Bono got it and the people he represents surely get it.
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Old 10-08-2005, 03:36 AM   #24
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Maybe Bono does get it, but in that case he shouldn't be in U2. They should fucking split for the duration. I've got all the respect in the world (up to a point) for the nuances of Bono's political job, but it's no longer possible for me to love U2 precisely because of this.
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Old 10-08-2005, 09:00 AM   #25
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I really do not get this bickering over Bono and his stances on things.

The man tries to do good in the world, and I love him for that. Period.

He does not have to agree with my stances on the issues.

He cares about PEOPLE. Caring about people includes soldiers, the poor, the average Joe.

I do not believe he supports Iraq, but his dedication of songs to the troops is not representative of his support of the war in Iraq, it is representative of his support of the human being serving his country in difficult times.

Seeing the show it is obvious he does not support the torture of another human being. Who in this forum believes that Abu G. was the correct thing to do?

But Bono cares about the soul.

Like Bush, hate Bush, he has done more for Afrian aid than any president in history. You are not going to get this administration to help if you are pointing out every fucking difference between the right and the left.

The politics would get in the way of saving lives. If it hurts so much to see him sacrafice the political differences for actually saving lives, shame on you!
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Old 10-08-2005, 09:11 AM   #26
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Just for the record, I'm not a liberal or a conservative, and I find Bono's schmoozefests with Clinton and Blair just as intolerable as his being soft on Bush.

(As to Bush, the war is not my only concern; I'll try not to get started about the criminal activities of the federal government on the gulf coast).

I'll also agree with one post in that I wish the Conan show had stayed away from politics.

But Conan asked a question about moving away from left-right and Bono repeated things he's said a zillion times this year (I did like the Jesse Helms story, though).

2005 Bono should be more articulate than 1985 Bono and the song "Like a Song" may be the most articulate yet.

"I knew much more then, than I do now . . . "

"A new heart is what I need, God make it bleed"

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Old 10-08-2005, 11:13 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's shades


I took the "He's doing a good job" statement as being strictly about aid to Africa. Of course you could argue that it might be a bit premature to be praising him in that area until he actually delivers on his promises, but I never for a moment thought Bono was praising every aspect of Bush's performance as president. I thought he made that clear when he said "we don't have to agree on everything. We only have to agree on one thing."

I would love it if Bono were harsher on the Bush administration because I think a lot of the people in it are incompetent at best and outright crooks at worst, but I don't see any way he can do that without losing the ground he's worked so hard to build.
I completely agree, which is why I'm disappointed Conan even tried to get Bono to talk about this....because it just turned into being about Bush and what he's doing instead of about Bono and what he's doing. I never thought Bono meant Bush was doing a good job in general, b/c what would Bono know about our education system, our health care, our disaster in the Gulf? I thought he meant, as far as African aid, Bush was able to get that all lined up, but the American people just don't seem to care. So why would Bush keep working so hard to get all that money ready when the rest of the country doesn't care and would rather spend it all on a stupid war? It's sooooo discouraging to see this turn into Bush-Bono EVERY SINGLE TIME it gets brought up. I spend some time in Africa this year learning about development and such, and NEVER ONCE did we have to bicker about "Bush is doing this" "no he's not" "yes he is", etc. The point is that most of Africa is grossly underdeveloped. Like Bush or hate Bush, he happens to be our President and we're all just going to have to work around that in order to get anything done. It's sad that the only person that seems to really be able to put those political differences aside is Bono.
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Old 10-08-2005, 02:48 PM   #28
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Originally posted by martha


I'm glad you can see these as two different things, because nowhere that I've seen has Bono said he supports the invasion of Iraq. I've read him say the exact opposite in fact.

Can you supply any quotes where he comes out and explicitly states his support for the invasion and occupation of Iraq? NOT quotes about Afganistan, please. And dedicating songs to the troops during an obviously anti-war section of the concert isn't the same as explicitly supporting the war in Iraq.
Can you supply any quotes where I claim that BONO supported the invasion and occupation of Iraq? The dedication did not come during a "obviously anti-war section" of the concert.

Can you find any quotes stating that BONO wants the current US/Coalition operation in Iraq to fail and for the US troops to immediately withdraw? Can you find any quotes where BONO clearly states he is opposed to the current coalition occupation of Iraq?
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Old 10-08-2005, 03:14 PM   #29
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Originally posted by Irvine511



yes, you're right. your use of the word "many" certianly absolves you of defining people for your political purposes. liberal is a vastly bigger term than "bushies" -- the people in the white house -- "neoconservatives" -- loosely defined as those who were once classical liberals, often came out of the U of Chicago and the Project for the New American CEntury, and now support the often unilateral application of american power to achieve political ends -- while "conservative," like "liberal," lies largely in the view of the person who is using that term. still, no matter what many people in here do, it doesn't make your post or lables any less intellectually lazy or politically convenient.
It was only a brief post and if you find the word "liberal" to be intellectually lazy or politically convenient then perhaps you can suggest a better word.
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Old 10-08-2005, 03:43 PM   #30
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Can you supply any quotes where I claim that BONO supported the invasion and occupation of Iraq? The dedication did not come during a "obviously anti-war section" of the concert.
I think you are really grasping at straws here.

The dedication to the troops was before Running To Stand Still, which U2 played right after the Sunday Bloody Sunday/Love and Peace or Else and Bullet the Blue Sky. If you don't think that portion of the concert isn't anti-war, you simply haven't been paying attention to any of U2's lyrics.

Personally, I think the phrase "Running to Stand Still" sounds like a pretty good description of the mess we are in right now with Iraq. I have no idea if that was what Bono was thinking when he made the dedication during that point in the show, but I can't see any other reason for him to choose that particular song for the dedication.
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